Player Features and Ideas Discussion

How about lowering the rank on Cybernetics skill o 2 or even to 1? Less annoying time loss would definitely not hurt.

Lack of "guts"? Its basic math.

"Hey I hear fleet warfare is fun, yaay lets go".
"Got my frig"
"Lost my frig"
"Get podded"
"Get Laughed at for losing a 500m pod in a 2 million isk ship".

You can't have it both ways.

Op, you have to understand that this is a very good suggestion for everybody except those people who are doing the following:

1) Have +5 or +6 implants (there are a few who still have those I believe).
2) Those who regularly train and sell characters on eve bazaar (as it slows down training for them).
3) Those who sell +5 implants (cause they make them money).
4) Those who want big isk kills by podding people who who have +5 implants.
5) Those who trained cybernetics to 5 just to put in +5 implants.

Those are generally the people in this thread who are against it. OP, you have a very good and considerate idea. It would remove a crutch related to training and getting people into combat. Heck I have my alts who I want to bring to PVP combat, but if they are in their training set, and there jump clone cooldown is not up, I don't bring them, Period.

Heck I've stopped jumping into wormholes with my training set, and won't bother going till I clone out to a lower set.

I have a set in my head at the moment, it would suck to lose it, but I would be more inclined to go jump into pvp and do stupid stuff if I was not worried about my training queue getting screwed by getting into a implantless clone. I would not have an objection to creating a booster type item that gives +'s to skill (Heck it would make drug labs a bit more useful).

I've been thinking of players going to a medical station and paying isk to have one of their base attributes bumped permanently by +1. Each bump becomes much more expensive to do; the equivalent of +5 implant being for the super-rich only.

This creates an isk sink.

This means people don't need to switch clones.

This means people don't lose the bonus when they're podded, removing the risk-aversion stuff from play.

This removes learning implants from play, leaving implants to boost abilities. PvPers can have 10 combat-oriented implants in their heads, researchers can have 10 scientific implants, etc..

Naturally those wearing currently +5 implants will howl at the notion of losing this boost until they can pay for it, but no one said the game was fair. This topic is about getting people out of the stations and into space; this idea may help.

I'd be willing to dump billions into this idea if I can keep my old +5s in addition to the stat bonus.

First off, if you are "not playing" because you want to train faster, you need to get your priorities corrected!!!

Next, fly what you can afford to lose. If you can afford to lose improved attribute implants, then do so. If they can't, then use standards or limit or whatever. Do you take a Marauder into PvP? A t1 BS? A recon? A BC? All of these have different amounts of isk at risk, and they provide advantages above cheaper ships. I could easily claim these ships benefit veterans, carebears, the rich, station huggers, and the stupidly risk adverse PvP'ers the most... but so what? should all ships now cost the same to fly?

The ONLY point you have is that these particular implants give you a boost while offline, whereas other implants dont.
--- The solution... you need to be logged in to receive their boost... (but suddenly everyone just logs into a station to train all day, which means this isn't really a solution).

Truthfully, what is the difference in training rates:
Beta (cost nothing compared to your ship) +1 attribute. + 90 SP / hr
Limited (cost little compared to your ship) +2 attribute + 180 SP/hr
Basic (Cost as much as a cruiser) + 3 attribute + 270 SP / hr
Standard (Cost more than a cruiser, less than a BC) + 360 SP / hr
Improved (Cost as much as a BS) + 450 SP / hr.

To put the SP / hr in perspective, a properly specced character earns 2250 SP / hr.
90 SP / hr is a 4% increase in training time.

An crappy specced character still earns 1530 SP / hr.
90 SP / hr is a 5.8% increase in training time.

If you can't PvP in +3's, you are either dying a lot (which is great when learning) or you are being a cheap bastage. And the difference between +3's and + 5's is 180 SP / hr which is a 7-10% reduction in max potential SP / hr.

This is NOTHING like the learning skills, which took weeks to months to train up, while your character does nothing to progress. And don't give me crap about Cyber V.... It takes 2 HOURS to train Cyber II, unlocking Basic implants so you can train at 90-93% of max potential. It takes 2.5 days for Cyber IV, unlocking standards, where you can train at 95-97% of Max potential. Training Cyber V is hardly a you-should-train-this-asap skill.

I really want you to think about what you are complaining about: Some people min/max their training so much, that they won't engage in game play that puts their implants at risk.

Something more to consider: The implant market is a MARKET. It is one of the primary means people turn LP into ISK, and removing them has economic consequences. This is one of the major ISK sinks in game. So, how do you plan to cope with the loss of this isk sink.


Finally, I really want to drive this point home: If you are "not playing" because you want to train faster, you need to get your priorities corrected!!!

Disagree with TS.

Having an expensive imps set in your head is an element of risk, so it would be stupid to remove this element from the game, as EVE is quite a cruel game about spaceships...

My issue with learning implants is it reeks of "pay to win". It's not like skill hardwires in which the cost is offset by whether you win that fight, but rather comparing the risk with permanently reducing your character's SP.

There is no meaningful choice to skill implants. If you can afford them, you use the better ones. It is purely a function of wallet. If I had a few hundred dollars to burn on PLEX to replace my implants you better believe I'd be PvP'ing with +5s. But I don't. So the folks who do will slowly pull ahead of me and there is exactly jack and **** I can do about it.

+1 OMG

EDIT: remove clone upgrade cost as well.

This is actually a very good suggestion that's slowly being discredited by some trolls that are grasping at straws and trying to find other unrelated aspects to refute it.

I do not believe pure learning implants(+1 to +5s) should be removed. Instead, they should be replaced by time-based booster-like effects similar to the ones you get from the starter packs, which are not lost with your pod. This actually fixes all of the problems people keep bringing up:

- Podding someone with implants is not an isk sink of any kind (like some people are saying). Material loss is not an ISK sink. The only sink you get from implants is when you purchase them in LP stores as they require you to pay a certain amount of ISK towards the shop along with LP. Turning them into boosters would both solve the OP concern as well as maintain the market supply and demand for implants (if anything, everyone will be purchasing them in a timely manner now). LP/ISK costs would obviously have be readjusted.

-Arguing to remove attributes and remaps is also a slippery slope. There is nothing wrong in certain people specializing into different activities and planning their skill growth accordingly. It is an interesting choice that diversifies character growth.

-Training skills were removed for exactly the same reason. They focused too much on passive play for an exchange of higher SP count (and more character options) in future. You could also say it was a meaningful choice of sitting around waiting now for better skills in future. It reality it sounds just as stupid as being encouraged not to risk your pod in order to advance your character, when most kinds of PVP are going to involve significant risk of losing your pod. In fact, that is exactly why most people that lose an expensive pod is usually a target of laugh and mockery. The grand majority of pods you find in low/nullsec are either empty or extremly cheap and that's because any kind of remotely interesting and not completly onesided engagement is going to suffer from eventual pod losses, especially in null.

-Contrary to popular belief, losing learning implants does not consitute any interesting or meaningful "choices". These buzzwords seem to get thrown around a lot from people that don't really know their meaning for a way to justify their beliefs. First of all, the grand majority of any risk you take during PVP will be the loss of your ship, and that's why you see empty pods everywhere in low/null. The first reason would be because learning skills have zero effect in your present combat ability. In essence, the only reason you'd want to risk your implants is to not waste the time you already paid not to waste. It's not a risk/reward scenario (using snakes/deltas/hardwirings IS a risk/reward because you're actually gaining an advantage in combat for using them). The only "reward" you are getting from using learning implants during PVP is saving up a couple minutes of training, which clearly isn't worth the possibility of loss of a learning pod. Therefore it's a pointless, adimentional choice with only 1 answer for 99% of the people. If you are too rich and don't mind losing a full set of +5s then it means it's not even a real loss, and therefore no real decision being made for you either. This is just like saying "I can opt not to keep my clone updated and save ISK". In reality neither of these things are an option.

I guess the main idea is that character progression should never be discouraged by active gameplay. If you think about it, the average low/null PVPer that switches to an empty jump clone every couple days is actually learning skills slower (by 30%!) than an alt that sits in station offline everyday. To me, this makes no sense at all. The entire point of a time-based progresson system is to be equal to everyone else, regardless of time spent online or activity, but right now it's actually rewarding those that don't do anything at all (which is why learning skills were removed).

SOV hurts carebears the most.
SOV benefits huge nullsec alliances the most.
SOV benefits huge alliances that dont even have to log in to have their assets protected for them.

Making it so that the ISK gradient benefits null, wh, low and true benefits those players and hurts highsec carebear miners the most.

Making mining vessels that have no true effective defense benefits pirates the most.

etc..etc..etc...

This entire game is based on some benefits going to certain playstyles and not all of them.

In short, your argument needs more justification for me to get on-board with it besides what you gave.