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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1661 - 2013-11-17 14:45:42 UTC
mama guru wrote:
Front loaded anti small weapons. Yes please.

These are not supposed to be main fleet weapons anyway. Don't really see a problem.




The problem is that THEY wil be good EXACLTY AT WHERE YOU SAID THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO.

They will be strong in fleets and weak solo.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1662 - 2013-11-17 15:15:11 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
I swear you guys get hired by CCP and you lose touch with the game. Whats in the punch bowl up there?

The smaller sized missile launchers on larger sized ships are used to outlast a larger number of smaller ships. Paper DPS doesnt matter here. Applied DPS does. Just reduce the damage of the missiles. If a caracal wants to use large DPS against similar or larger ships he'll go with HAMS over RLML. The same will go for the raven using cruise missiles over heavy (lets be honest... torps are still broken and suck no one with a brain will ever use them)

Now the big purpse of the smaller weapons system is to be able to dictate the engagement. Its not about raping frigates in 5 seconds with high DPS light missiles. Its about applying constant and reliable damage to smaller targets over time. Give me 200 DPS over 1 minute with a 10 seconds reload, over 400 DPS in 30 seconds with a 40 second reload. This way I can defend myself constantly and stay fighting.

You guys need to remember the old film saying..... "Sometimes less is more". You dont need to "fix" everything by adding features.... maybe just reduce some stats once in a while if you find they are working "too well".


The biggest thing to take away from this... Is that constant applied DPS over the entire engagement is what we need to fight outnumbered. We dont need omg uber DPS for 50 seconds, then omg im F****** cant do anything for 40 seconds while this merlin that just caught me kills me. Or in a way Kil2 can relate..... sweet my Armageddon does 2k DPS for 40 seconds! 40 seconds later after fighting a mega that died and a tempest...... okay mega down, reloading for 40 seconds.... omg a curse just landed I need to get him off the field..... oh **** I have to wait 40 seconds and sit here like a moron while the curse eats my cap and now my active tank dies to the tempest......... but if I had lower dps that was constant I could have forced the curse off and still fought the mega and tempest.

Wild


It makes perfect sense to me and I'm not even that much of a PvPer. This might be the best post in this whole thread.
Zircon Dasher
#1663 - 2013-11-17 15:20:45 UTC
It is unacceptable that missile users now have to make tradeoffs.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1664 - 2013-11-17 15:33:38 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
It is unacceptable that missile users now have to make tradeoffs.



If was a tradeoff would be ok. THe issue is.. its not a trade off. Frotn loaded DPS is an illusion. It sno where the same thing as alpha strike that is INSTATANEOUS, before ANY repair can be applied, before enemy can bug out. But rapids now have a larger tradeoff for that falacious frotn load damage, that is a larger reload time than 1400mm arties.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zircon Dasher
#1665 - 2013-11-17 15:55:01 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If was a tradeoff would be ok. THe issue is.. its not a trade off. Frotn loaded DPS is an illusion. It sno where the same thing as alpha strike that is INSTATANEOUS, before ANY repair can be applied, before enemy can bug out. But rapids now have a larger tradeoff for that falacious frotn load damage, that is a larger reload time than 1400mm arties.


One day I mentioned to my wife (now ex) that I really liked the way that Chevy had restyled the front-end of their truck. She spent the next 20min ranting about how I was wrong because a hatchback could carry more than a Miata.

I like you. You remind me of her.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1666 - 2013-11-17 16:17:11 UTC
40 second reload time is going to make them useless for anything but a specific squad to warp in, kill frigates, and warp out.

If they wanted to make a module specific for this purpose that would be a great idea but doing this to the RLML is just bad.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#1667 - 2013-11-17 16:37:12 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
It is unacceptable that missile users now have to make tradeoffs.


40 seconds of 0 dps goes beyond tradeoff, especially with the warp speed changes coming on Tuesday.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1668 - 2013-11-17 17:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
So rapids are OP slightly, but to fix the range issues, explosion radius, explosion velocity, change rapids to HAMs and rockets, and add 2s to 3s to thier RofF compared to what heavy assault launcher and rocket launchers do now and everything is fixed. Their range is much less, explosion radius is more, explain velocity is less and taking a couple seconds from RofF will keep their DPS in check. Don't allow cruisers, BCs or BS to give their explosion bonuses to rapids. Also rockets still won't get the range or DPS HAMs would, and HAMs wouldn't get the DPS torps would, meaning rapids will be used mostly for smaller targets like they are suppose to be/ If adjusted right,it will work. See I fixed rapids

Or F it, and come out with a real new launcher type, might work too.

and only a couple with "good work on testing" F you all haha
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1669 - 2013-11-17 17:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Volstruis wrote:
Sad and happy at the same time.

Rise is officially the anti-solo.


This makes me wonder how CCP's decision making process works. If one of the devs comes up with an idea does it go for a vote or they just let them run with it? I'm just wondering because I couldn't believe this passed any kind of vote or approval.
CW Itovuo
The Executioners
#1670 - 2013-11-17 18:17:48 UTC

Will never use them. Reload time is stupid.


Can't see the point.


CCP turned the missile family upside down a year or so ago. HAM were seldom used, HML ruled. CCP get's to "fixing" and now we're in the exact opposite situation. HAMs are now the defacto choice, and HML are rarely if ever fielded.


Hooray "Balance"


Creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1671 - 2013-11-17 18:51:00 UTC
Push the HAMs/Rocket rapids, I rather have that then 40sec reload, and it would fix the OP issue. tell CCP people!
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1672 - 2013-11-17 19:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Zircon Dasher wrote:
It is unacceptable that missile users now have to make tradeoffs.

It is unacceptable that CCP sees fit to introduce new modules and completely redesign old modules without first conducting a thorough re-examination and rebalance of the ammunition, instead declaring that the modules in question are too popular even though it's the ammunition's inherent problems causing the perceived popularity.

If a thorough rockets-to-citadels re-investigation and rebalance of missile ammunition had been conducted prior to announcing RHMLs, I believe CCP would have been looking at a very different missile-usage landscape; one where there is room for old-style rapids to co-exist with their same-size less-rapid counterparts or even room for these new-style front-heavy rapids as other choices would be properly useful as well.

Instead, we got what we got. Oh well, right?


Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Push the HAMs/Rocket rapids, I rather have that then 40sec reload, and it would fix the OP issue. tell CCP people!

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding because your sentence is unclear and poorly written, but if you are suggesting that Rockets and HAMs should be converted to this ancillary business, then I would suggest that you cut off your hands and never post again.

If instead you are suggesting a cruiser-sized Rapid Rocket Launcher and a battleship-sized Rapid HAM Launcher then maybe you can keep your hands.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1673 - 2013-11-17 19:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
No i am saying replace lights and heavies with rockets and assault missiles, as that will clear up the issues that lights and heavies had for being OP. The OP issues seemed to be that they have great range, their explosion radius was too small and their explosion velocity was too high. With HAMs and rockets replacing them, their range would be cut down, their explosion radius is brought up and their explosion velocity was brought down. Then all they need is a couple seconds added to their RofF and cruisers, BCs and BSs not have thier explosions bonuses given the rapid launchers, and most of the OP issues are taken care of. Learn to read and you should have understood. And anytime youd'd like to cut my hands off, come on over and tell me how it works out for you haha. I am just trying to save rapids, because 40sec reload time will make them close to if not worthless.

This "should" make using rapids against smaller targets better, but also make using them against ships the same size or larger a bad idea. It would need to be tested on sisi and I'm sure tweaked, but it's a better option then 40sec reload.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1674 - 2013-11-17 20:01:29 UTC
Rise said at the outset that he feels this change is necessary because testing on SiSi showed that RLMLs and RHMLs are "almost always the right answer for everything" or something very close to that. Putting unguided missiles (Rockets, Heavies and Torps used to be considered "unguided" before they changed skills to no longer make a distinction) into rapid launchers would be a hilarious waste of ammunition at worst and hilariously OP at best - nevermind the fact that you need to be literally right on top of the enemy to hit them with rockets and so would be better off using blasters anyway.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1675 - 2013-11-17 20:04:47 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:

The OP issues seemed to be that they have great range, their explosion radius was too small and their explosion velocity was too high.

Range can be reduced, but exp radius and velocity are good as they are.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1676 - 2013-11-17 20:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ok, now any of the smartasses defendign these changes want to come here and sy they know better than wildcat? Both math and good pvpers atest how problematic this is.

So beyond reverting back to the original RLMLs (I think RHMLs will be fine), what's the solution? Because I think if anyone is holding out hope that CCP is going to reinstate the original RLML specs they're going to be extremely disappointed. Would a 20-second reload time make them too OP, or would a combination of a 30-second reload time and increased ammunition be better?

Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Range can be reduced, but exp radius and velocity are good as they are.

Range is fine, and I'm really growing weary of the "range" argument. 100km range doesn't mean anything if it takes 10 seconds or more to get there. All the other weapons types are basically insta-hit/miss, and the delay from firing to impact is already one of the drawbacks with missiles.

Now if you want to marginally reduce range by compensating with an increase to missile velocity, then you've perked my interest.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1677 - 2013-11-17 20:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
First you wouldn't need to be right on top of the target, you'd still be able to hit 15km to 20km with the rapid rockets and 20km to 30km with the assault rapids. And if you added to the RoF by a couple to a few seconds it would take any OP it would have away. Those get more explosion radius, which would make them less OP, and less explosion velocity which again less OP. Also not added the bonuses to explosion from cruisers, BCs, and BSs would take away making them OP. the rockets and assault T2 also wouldn't make them OP, as their damage T2 takes range away, and their range take damage way.This is a easy way to make rapids not OP and not give them a 40sec reload time which is a terrible idea. It also makes them not so useful against ships of the same size or larger, and will be only really good against smaller ships. One issue was people who used guns didn't think it was fair that rapids had great range and works good against ships the same size and smaller both. This would fix that issue in everyway. And I think deserved at least to be tested on sisi. And that the 4-sec idea should be put on hold and this in some way be tested. I'm just trying to find away besides 40sec realod to fix them, so please help.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1678 - 2013-11-17 20:25:09 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Would a 20-second reload time make them too OP, or would a combination of a 30-second reload time and increased ammunition be better?

PvP reasons aside, PvE needs old rapid launchers back. Nerf damage by 5%, nerf range by idk 20% but bring it back as it was.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1679 - 2013-11-17 20:32:55 UTC
Anytime reload time for weapons is over 10secs is crazy and is taking weapons to a bad place. Now for PvE you can find other means then rapids, and even with my changes in the right ship with the right rigs you can still reach out and tough someone. I don't see taking DPS away, and range away as helping really, they still will be able to do something close guns can't and far guns can't in one.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#1680 - 2013-11-17 20:49:18 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Would a 20-second reload time make them too OP, or would a combination of a 30-second reload time and increased ammunition be better?

PvP reasons aside, PvE needs old rapid launchers back. Nerf damage by 5%, nerf range by idk 20% but bring it back as it was.


You're miasing the point which is that rlml apply their damage nearly perfectly to every target regardless of speed. While their dps is relatively low at only 280 or so dps for a cruiser. . they are pushing that dps to 50km and hitting for full damage pretty much everu time. Now take heavy missiles and literally double the dps... 900dps over 50s is 45k damage dealt.. and the application of said damage is very good too...

it's not as simple as you suggest. Provided you use these weapons on the right targets you will melt them nearly every time. The long reload is to ensure you can't just sit there and wipe a whole gang solo.