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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Anomaly One
Doomheim
#1641 - 2013-11-17 03:31:56 UTC
can't wait for people who don't visit the forums and use RLML in game Twisted
compelling game play mechanic CCP! bravo!
/slowclap

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#1642 - 2013-11-17 04:23:53 UTC
I still think it's an interesting idea, and it remains to be seen how effective (or not) they'll be. I like the idea of quickly clearing out any frigates and cruisers in any given mission, and the "burst" aspect will certainly make that an almost absolute certainty. 40 seconds is not an eternity, since a lot of time it takes 20+ seconds to lock a lot of the smaller targets anyway. Many of you are talking about "paper DPS". It's almost never realized anyway when you're waiting for target locks, dealing with ECM jamming, having the wrong type of ammo loaded or simply waiting for the current weapon cycle to finish. It's entirely possible that being able to finish smaller targets off more quickly and having far less time between cycles will actually translate into higher damage application. I'm going to give both new systems a go before signing death warrants for either.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1643 - 2013-11-17 04:40:11 UTC
Suleiman al-Amarr wrote:
This is obviously a horrendous idea, and CCP too will realize this eventually. Too bad those of us who have grown fond of how the current RLML works and really loves using them have to wait until a patch down the road for things to be fixed again.


You're more optimistic than I am. I think they will stubbornly insist that this version is better than the original for months if not years to come.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1644 - 2013-11-17 04:42:21 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I still think it's an interesting idea, and it remains to be seen how effective (or not) they'll be. I like the idea of quickly clearing out any frigates and cruisers in any given mission, and the "burst" aspect will certainly make that an almost absolute certainty. 40 seconds is not an eternity, since a lot of time it takes 20+ seconds to lock a lot of the smaller targets anyway. Many of you are talking about "paper DPS". It's almost never realized anyway when you're waiting for target locks, dealing with ECM jamming, having the wrong type of ammo loaded or simply waiting for the current weapon cycle to finish. It's entirely possible that being able to finish smaller targets off more quickly and having far less time between cycles will actually translate into higher damage application. I'm going to give both new systems a go before signing death warrants for either.


Even if they turn out to be okay, all the people who liked the way the old versions worked are getting completely screwed. That's pretty lame in my opinion.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#1645 - 2013-11-17 05:12:31 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Even if they turn out to be okay, all the people who liked the way the old versions worked are getting completely screwed. That's pretty lame in my opinion.

Old Marauders... old HACs...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#1646 - 2013-11-17 05:28:37 UTC
The major issue with larger missile sizes is their poor application. I can push 900 dps out of a cerberus but a battleship doing more than 500 a second can speed tank me. It stands to reason even a cruiser that is webbed can speed tank almost all incoming dps from hams.

And the problem lies in the missile damage formula always choosing the worst ratio of either sig interactions or velocity instead of the best.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1647 - 2013-11-17 06:09:45 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Even if they turn out to be okay, all the people who liked the way the old versions worked are getting completely screwed. That's pretty lame in my opinion.

Old Marauders... old HACs...


I missed where those were fundamentally changed into something else entirely.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1648 - 2013-11-17 06:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
I'm testing HAMs vs RMLs. I am using a Cerberus with 3 BDUs plus the launcher types. Nothing on the Cerb will change except the launcher. Ammo will be Caldari Navy light missiles, and Caldari Navy heavy missiles.

Post combat log, and toons date of birth. Ships fit will stay the same for both missile types.

HAMs 617.3 DPS
Rate of Fire - 2.5sec
Explosion Radius - 88m
Explosion Velocity - 160.59m/sec

RMLs 340 DPS
Rate of Fire - 3.7sec
Explosion Radius - 28m
Explosion Velocity - 270.3m/sec

Armor pilot - 2007-01-21 Shield pilot - 2008-11-23

RMLs -
against Cerberus - MWD on - 05:38:08 Combat 228 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD Off - 05:38:08 Combat 228 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Thorax - MWD on - 05:53:51 Combat 566 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 05:54:01 Combat 567 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Ishtar - MWD on - 05:58:22 Combat 186 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 05:58:22 Combat 186 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Stabber - MWD on - 06:02:23 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:02:23 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Gila - MWD on - 06:07:25 Combat 366 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:07:25 Combat 366 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

against Phantasm - MWD on - 06:09:29 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Phantasm) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:09:29 Combat 455 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Phantasm) - Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile - Hits

HAMs -
against Thorax - MWD on 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Phantasm - MWD on - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:15:50 Combat 511 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Ishtar - MWD on - 06:22:01 Combat175 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:22:32 Combat 188 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Stabber - MWD on - 06:24:19 Combat 297 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:25:18 Combat 316 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Stabber) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Gila - MWD on - 06:28:13 Combat 755 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:28:40 Combat 443 to aduron - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

against Cerberus - MWD on - 06:32:39 Combat 192 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits
MWD off - 06:41:01 Combat 275 to Badden Powell[FUDY](Cerberus) - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile - Hits

Intereting RMLs won against T1s, HAMs won against faction, and with a MWD RMLs won slightly, but also need to take in account the HAMs firing 1.1sec faster. But with MWD off the HAMs won against HACs. Wow did not see that. also this was tested on the regular EVE server. So are rapids OP, slightly, but to fix the range issues, explosion radius, explosion velocity, change rapids to HAMs and rockets, and add 2s to 3s to RofF compared to what heavy assault launcher and rocket launchers do now and everything is fixed. Their range is much less, explosion radius is more, explain veolcity is less and taking a couple seconds from RofF will keep their DPS in check. I fixed rapids, thank you! : ^)

CCP Rise PLEASE take a look at this and take it into account, thank you!
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#1649 - 2013-11-17 06:52:34 UTC
I demand that rlml be modified to firing more than 1 charge at a time. The ability lies in the background code so let's finally have a weapon that can. I'm thinking of srm from mech warrior games right now
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1650 - 2013-11-17 07:23:12 UTC
40 seconds reload time is way too much for any weapon.

60 seconds reload time for ASBs is fine. but for a weapon with as little as 23 charges, a reload time of 40 seconds is a nerf to the point of being almost completely useless.

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
Ziraili Onzo
Yggdrasil Woodchoppers
#1651 - 2013-11-17 07:28:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ziraili Onzo
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, so far I feel like I'm seeing 3 major areas of complaint, alongside a lot of people who think this will be a good change. Those areas are:

  • 40s reload is boring and will be miserable to use please don't do it
  • Switching ammo types (other damage types or to FOF(does anyone actually use fof?)) will be very difficult which is key for missile users
  • This is a nerf to RLML and I love them so please don't do it

    • How about a mechanic that would somewhat split the reload timer into two parts..

    First you have a "heat-timer", that starts after your last fired shot. Once that timer is over, you can start the actual reloading cycle, with timer being the same as it is right now (short duration).

    The sum of these timers could be in the range that Rubicon-version is, but the main idea is that it wouldnt take away the key attribute missiles have with quickly changing damage types. But it still leaves the door open for that "new decition-making" that you want with this burst-model for dps. If you commit to a fight with a certain damage-type, your getting the full reload cycle if said fight last longer than one reload. If your just landing on grid with someone, but still havent fired your first shot, you can quickly change the ammo type, since your "heat-timer" is most likely already done coming out of your warp..

    This model of reloading could be applied to other weapon-systems aswell, or also iterated on so that giving us another support-skill for rapid launchers, quick cooldown, shortening the heat-timer or something. (And this paragraph is what will get me alot of flaming from the playerbase, but might get some love from CCP since they really do enjoy throwing in more SP-sinks for us :P Yes i know, horrible idea..)

    This could also blend in with the warpspeed-changes somewhat. If your fighting at a gate, bounce up to a tac, and then down again (cancelling gateguns?), with that warp being alot quicker, you might not be able to reload right away since the warp is over so quick.. A good call might however be to warp off, wait until you could start the actual reload-cycle, and then warp back down to gate, giving you the choice to a: get back into the fight asap to get points, or b: be able to not get into the fight until you got a better damagetype

    As for lore, you could say that with the rapid version launchers, your firing missiles at almost double the rate of fire, and your launchers need some time to cool down before your next firing-cycle, or else the missile-tubes is gonna crack or something :P
    Elisk Skyforge
    State War Academy
    #1652 - 2013-11-17 10:47:26 UTC
    RLML and RHML should be given two firing modes switchable in space. "Burst mode" commonly used by ccp rise and "regular mode" used by others.
    Roime
    Mea Culpa.
    Shadow Cartel
    #1653 - 2013-11-17 11:13:38 UTC
    Ganthrithor wrote:
    Kara Trix wrote:
    It doesn't stop.... the nails I mean for CERB pilots.. (which I am one)

    They changed the bonus on the CERBERUS as well to exclude Light Missiles for the ROF bonus.

    So now it will no longer give a 5% percent bonus to all missiles ROF... only HAM,HML and RLML

    Wow....... keep them coming. So we get ZERO damage bonus on Lights for flying this expensive HAC over a T1, only range?


    Yup. Rise made a retardedly overpowered module, and now it's time for the special-casing so that only people who want to fly throwaway 30m isk ships can actually use the OP gear. Otherwise older players in real ships would be able to compete: we wouldn't want that.

    Same BS with AARs and ASBs: a tiny minority of skillful players used to use active armor / shield tanking with great success. CCP saw this going on, saw that mere mortals who either couldn't afford high-end modules or weren't skillful enough to manage cap injection cycles etc weren't able to use these tactics, so they cook up some 3m isk module that gives your terrible T1 ship the same tanking capability as some autist's two-billion isk cruiser, "but only for 50 seconds."

    Such a stupid idea. I suppose they'll be restricting RLMLs on the Tengu as well, since you'd have been able to do something like 650 dps with light missiles using them.

    I have an idea: how about you design balanced modules instead of pushing out overpowered bullshit and then restricting it to use on throwaway ships? Why should I play a game that's totally balanced in favor of people flying throwaway crap in a suicidal manner? Stop making cheap crap outperform things people have spent ages training + saving for.


    What a bunch of ******** bullshit


    .
    Yummy Chocolate
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1654 - 2013-11-17 11:19:34 UTC
    Elisk Skyforge wrote:
    RLML and RHML should be given two firing modes switchable in space. "Burst mode" commonly used by ccp rise and "regular mode" used by everyone else.

    FTFY

    also +1

    also for every other module since CCP Rise loves Burst Mode.

    Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

    Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
    Bouh Revetoile
    In Wreck we thrust
    #1655 - 2013-11-17 13:01:15 UTC
    Anomaly One wrote:
    can't wait for people who don't visit the forums and use RLML in game Twisted
    compelling game play mechanic CCP! bravo!
    /slowclap

    People said that a lot in the past, and we are still waiting for the rage to come on the forums.

    Hurricane nerf ;
    HML nerf ;
    TE nerf ;
    resist bonus nerf ;
    T1 Battleships ;
    T1 Battlecruisers ;
    ...

    HAC where supposed to stay very bad too, and the MWD bonus to them completely useless.

    "Incoming rage" is often the last desperate call of misery of angry people around here when they see trheir toys nerfed. It's quite funny in fact. :-)
    Caleb Seremshur
    Commando Guri
    Guristas Pirates
    #1656 - 2013-11-17 13:25:47 UTC
    I think we're seeing a tectonic shift in EVE design philosophy towards active tanking and away from fleet logi and their associated doctrines. Away from out-ranging your opponents and out EHPing them. Now it's going to be closer range battles where speed and capacitor discipline makes the difference more important. The focus on burst tanking and now burst DPS are perfectly complimentary to some kind of "all-or-nothing" type of ship design. That's not to say the RLML change is especially great but it makes sense to me and I can see why it's being done. Engagement ranges are being lowered and cap instability is being increased.

    Expect during the recon/T3 rebalance pass to see the pilgrim/curse/legion get some serious neut range/amount bonuses and also see the rook possibly gain an active tanking bonus. It really wouldn't surprise me if the huginn got one too.
    DHB WildCat
    Out of Focus
    Odin's Call
    #1657 - 2013-11-17 13:56:55 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
    I swear you guys get hired by CCP and you lose touch with the game. Whats in the punch bowl up there?

    The smaller sized missile launchers on larger sized ships are used to outlast a larger number of smaller ships. Paper DPS doesnt matter here. Applied DPS does. Just reduce the damage of the missiles. If a caracal wants to use large DPS against similar or larger ships he'll go with HAMS over RLML. The same will go for the raven using cruise missiles over heavy (lets be honest... torps are still broken and suck no one with a brain will ever use them)

    Now the big purpse of the smaller weapons system is to be able to dictate the engagement. Its not about raping frigates in 5 seconds with high DPS light missiles. Its about applying constant and reliable damage to smaller targets over time. Give me 200 DPS over 1 minute with a 10 seconds reload, over 400 DPS in 30 seconds with a 40 second reload. This way I can defend myself constantly and stay fighting.

    You guys need to remember the old film saying..... "Sometimes less is more". You dont need to "fix" everything by adding features.... maybe just reduce some stats once in a while if you find they are working "too well".


    The biggest thing to take away from this... Is that constant applied DPS over the entire engagement is what we need to fight outnumbered. We dont need omg uber DPS for 50 seconds, then omg im F****** cant do anything for 40 seconds while this merlin that just caught me kills me. Or in a way Kil2 can relate..... sweet my Armageddon does 2k DPS for 40 seconds! 40 seconds later after fighting a mega that died and a tempest...... okay mega down, reloading for 40 seconds.... omg a curse just landed I need to get him off the field..... oh **** I have to wait 40 seconds and sit here like a moron while the curse eats my cap and now my active tank dies to the tempest......... but if I had lower dps that was constant I could have forced the curse off and still fought the mega and tempest.

    Wild
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1658 - 2013-11-17 14:26:55 UTC
    DHB WildCat wrote:
    I swear you guys get hired by CCP and you lose touch with the game. Whats in the punch bowl up there?

    The smaller sized missile launchers on larger sized ships are used to outlast a larger number of smaller ships. Paper DPS doesnt matter here. Applied DPS does. Just reduce the damage of the missiles. If a caracal wants to use large DPS against similar or larger ships he'll go with HAMS over RLML. The same will go for the raven using cruise missiles over heavy (lets be honest... torps are still broken and suck no one with a brain will ever use them)

    Now the big purpse of the smaller weapons system is to be able to dictate the engagement. Its not about raping frigates in 5 seconds with high DPS light missiles. Its about applying constant and reliable damage to smaller targets over time. Give me 200 DPS over 1 minute with a 10 seconds reload, over 400 DPS in 30 seconds with a 40 second reload. This way I can defend myself constantly and stay fighting.

    You guys need to remember the old film saying..... "Sometimes less is more". You dont need to "fix" everything by adding features.... maybe just reduce some stats once in a while if you find they are working "too well".


    The biggest thing to take away from this... Is that constant applied DPS over the entire engagement is what we need to fight outnumbered. We dont need omg uber DPS for 50 seconds, then omg im F****** cant do anything for 40 seconds while this merlin that just caught me kills me. Or in a way Kil2 can relate..... sweet my Armageddon does 2k DPS for 40 seconds! 40 seconds later after fighting a mega that died and a tempest...... okay mega down, reloading for 40 seconds.... omg a curse just landed I need to get him off the field..... oh **** I have to wait 40 seconds and sit here like a moron while the curse eats my cap and now my active tank dies to the tempest......... but if I had lower dps that was constant I could have forced the curse off and still fought the mega and tempest.

    Wild



    Ok, now any of the smartasses defendign these changes want to come here and sy they know better than wildcat?


    Both math and good pvpers atest how problematic this is.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1659 - 2013-11-17 14:28:07 UTC
    Caleb Seremshur wrote:
    I think we're seeing a tectonic shift in EVE design philosophy towards active tanking and away from fleet logi and their associated doctrines. Away from out-ranging your opponents and out EHPing them. Now it's going to be closer range battles where speed and capacitor discipline makes the difference more important. The focus on burst tanking and now burst DPS are perfectly complimentary to some kind of "all-or-nothing" type of ship design. That's not to say the RLML change is especially great but it makes sense to me and I can see why it's being done. Engagement ranges are being lowered and cap instability is being increased.

    Expect during the recon/T3 rebalance pass to see the pilgrim/curse/legion get some serious neut range/amount bonuses and also see the rook possibly gain an active tanking bonus. It really wouldn't surprise me if the huginn got one too.


    you mena.. focusing on gallente? what a surprise considerign certain peopel involved :/ Jsut check the ammount of attention on the galeltne BS balance thread and the other 3...

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    mama guru
    Yazatas.
    #1660 - 2013-11-17 14:30:43 UTC
    Front loaded anti small weapons. Yes please.

    These are not supposed to be main fleet weapons anyway. Don't really see a problem.

    EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.