Ships & Modules

The vaga, is a horrible kiting boat. The cynabal makes a much better kiter. Vaga is so close to being a really nice kiting ship- too bad AC's are a horrible weapon system, the TE nerf happened, and the vaga only has a 20% falloff bonus. It needs more. You can't arty fit a Vaga, because it simply doesn't have the grid.

I don't understand why you are trying to convince the OP to fly the stabber, because they help a new player- when in that same sentance you admit they are crap. What kind of advice is that? Be truthful to the newbors, so they don't waste time / SP / ISK into something that will not give them the best results.

The arty cynabal is a passable kiter. Certainly not my favorite, but its not bad.

Every ship does not have a role, because some roles should not be played- or are simply out done by other ships. For example- the Eagle is just bad, and serves no purpose or roll. I can say the same for HMLs.

So if i am understanding this logic correctly:

You want new players to fly something that is complete ****, until they magically come across another ship somehow fit worse than them- and then write up what happened during the fight?

As opposed to having a new player flying a good ship, in a proper way, getting kills because he is using sound fitting, sound ships, and sound tactics. And dying because he made a piloting error, not because of the extreamly bad limitations of his ship. How does the first meathodology make any sense at all?

The Vaga falls short in a number of ways. I am not saying that a vaga has never killed a cynabal. In all technicality it shouldn't (provided both ships are piloted well, and fit well). AC's are bad- because they lack the projection and DPS of pulse lasers / rails. When it comes to close range, Blasters out perform them in every way. AC platforms were hit really hard by the TE nerf. Throw in the fact that there is really no apprecable way to increasing your fall off nearly as efficently as optimal- and that spelled the end for the AC kiting boats.

The eagle is bad yes. Because if you are using it as a blaster platorm, the diemos does that job so much better, in every way. Further- you are telling me that you saw a HAC fleet kill a BC fleet.... How incredible..... HAC's are >>>>>>>> BC's anyday. SO this is not surpising.

Vaga cynabal fleets, while they do appear from time to time work well at blobbing. Against a proper nano or brawling fleet they are going to die in a fire. Now an arty cynabal fleet- that has some merit, and is a nice nano fleet style- but other than that, are very sub standard to Sentry ishtarts / RLM Cerbs.

Nope I want new players to learn the right way to fly, and in a cheap T1 ship is the best, doesn't matter much to loose it and as a new player it's best to learn in something cheap, and learn right rather then have to learn the hard way over and over. Also not ALL t1s are **** rifters, punchers, merlin, etc aren't really bad, and thats what I buy them. And doing AARs is a pretty good way to learn, works for the best military in the world, so I don't mind using it haha. Learning with regular equipment instead of learning with the best will teach you much more and help you learn much faster. But don't worry it's not like this is something that has worked for MANY in the real world and in EVE, but whatever.

Proj don't suck for a NUMBER of reasons, one you don't have to get as close as blasters, and they track much better then lasers usually, so if you control the range you can control a fight against blaster and hit harder then lasers. Second you can use any damage type just like missiles, which can make you win a fight pretty easy, and no cap. So if you have a Vaga with dual Large ASBs and 220mms and can control the range, your resist are already unreal and you have better speed then most any other HAC and most other cruisers and destroyers, so you can rock most if you know what you are doing. Also usually with HACs you don't need to kite, they have a great tank so get in and rock whatever you are fighting, kinda same idea with AFs.

I don't ever fear a deimos with a Eagle, just like I don't fear a Enyo with a Harpy, no need, a well fit Eagle will beat deimos easy. The opimal range bonus on the Eagle makes it with blaster a very mean boat even at around 10km. Just like a Rohk has little to fear from a Mega.

I am only going off of what I have seen used in fleets and solo and what has worked for me. I don't go off of hear say or EFT or being closed minded. Eagles fit right and used right have little to fear from deimos, Vagas fit right have little to fear from Cynabals and most other cruisers and down.

Cerbs are great because of there range even with HAMs, but sentries and HMLs and HAMs fleets are only good if you keep range, and with a lot of other fleets you won't be able to do that. I love the cerb now, and use it any chance I get, but I also know it won't always stand up.

The big thing is look out side the box, they seem to be the fleet that rock most of other ones. Don't believe me, some of the best big alliances make fleet that most other fleet would think are crazy. DofD, AAA, Goons, etc have proven this time again and again. To say Vaga suck is a hell of a bold statement, and one I have seen to be wrong over and over again. Same with the Eagle. But it's all how you fly them. And you don't have to believe in my teaching ways, but again they are some that work well in EVE and out of EVE, and I know this because I use it in EVE and out of EVE and both have worked to make great PvPers, and good other things in real life.

But this is also why I like you, no matter what you will argue with me and give me something to do. Just like when I fully tested HAMs vs RLMs, and proved HAMs against Cruisers and HACs out preformed RLMs. Even though I tested it with the same fit, only changed out my missile launchers, both used faction scourge missiles, and both went against the same fit on the faction ship I fought and the HACs I fought. Against the Vaga I even lost wihen I usd RLMs, but beat the Vaga with HAMs, and both times I was fit the same way as was the Vaga. Against regular or faction cruisers the HAMs out did the RLMs by far, and against HACs the RLMs and HAMs were always within 5 to 10 points of damage per hit everytime, and as HAMs have a faster RofF that would mean their DPS is higher. But also now that CCP have ruined rapid launcher it doesn't matter much. But I do thank you for keeping me on my toes and making me question myself so I will test ideas out and keep up with the time. I also like that you keep our disagreement civil and you do know what you are talking about through combat.

1. I agree, like I said I give them 20 fully fit ships, and try to make them T2 and Meta4 fit, but that also depends heavily on their skills. AArs help a lot, you just have to explain the reason for them and why they are being used. Don't worry combat has a huge learning curve also, hints why we use AArs in training. Only time AArs don't work is either the person doesn't wish to learn or they are giving harshly, which sometimes can shut the person down to learn. If they are giving right and thoughtfully they work amazing well.

2. You don't have to use barrage, you can use faction ammo there too and tracking is again back up, you can also use range ammo the is EM, and Therm/Kin like Phased and EMP ammo. Meaning if you have idea idea of what fleet you will be engaging you can pick the right ammo for up close and more range and do well, if you aren't sure pick T2, EMP close and range, and Phased close and range, all damage types have range also And Min can control the range of fights easy, I do it all the time, thats one way I beat ships in Vaga so well. Having the fastest ships in game make it easy to control range, if you know how. If you get range down by pretty much any blaster boat in a Vaga or most of ships you are in trouble, but if you see a Diemos or Eagle, you just have to stay away from them, which being about to go close to or over 3,000m/s makes that pretty easy. ASbs are made to brawl, what are you talking about, dual ASB boats rock in small gangs to solo. And if you are in a large gang use one large shield boost and extenders and allow your logi to help and again it's VERY hard to take your tank down with the Vaga booster bonus. I have seen Vagas with a largey boost and boost amp, pretty much completely reboost there shield fully in one go, from close to empty all the way back. If you are fighting cruisers and use 220mms you won't miss if they are in range and you know what to do and have your skills up, and if you use your ASBs or shield boost wisely you will win many fights, again it happens a lot. Vagas are mean as hell.

3. Now I know you are either trolling me or honestly don't know how to fly. AF rock, I had beat ANy frigate and destroyer in a AF and a good number of T1 cruisers, AF gangs can rock small gangs of BS, and BC easy. Do I stay away from HACs and OPs ships, yes but that's ecause I'm not stupid and know they will rock small ships. Ewar, + HACs is bad to deal with ever. I have easy over 120 kills in Harpies, over 90 in Hawk, and over 50 in all the after AF put together. And that is just with one of my toons not my other 2. AF are amazing ships, they might not be what they were after the patch with interceptors getting so buffed, but if you want a ship to get in scram and if able web and hold out for the fleet AFs will do it for you. http://www.eve-legio.com/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15573 That kill not only was I in the Harpy that grabbed and help the Tempest but I did top damage with a frigate in a fleet of BC and cruisers, don't doubt AFs haha, and that is my least skilled toon.

4. I am an alt, I think I have even said that before, this is my money making toon, not my main PvP toons. But thanks for going to the killboard to try and talk sh*t, good job keeping up the acting like an adult. Don't worry both my other toons have easily over 1,000 kills each, and yes some even in Eagles and so on. But as I am well not a place I can play EVE so well for 9months or so the best I can do with this crap internet is do forums and mission "sometimes" when I get ack I doubt you will see me on the forums much. I don't forum it up as much when I am able to really play. Even when I am back between my job, my new born daughter I have to pick my time wisely, and that will be to pvp not forum.

5. EFT is a good model to see how to fit and what can and can't work, but it doesn't tell how ships will hold up in PvP, to do the use sisi, and just keep testing. I have made fits in EFT I thought would rock, but when I tested them on sisi or in real pvp they didin't hold up. Same with fits I hought wouldn'tbe too great, sometimes they turned out amazing on sisi and in real pvp. You can ask ANYONE I fly with, I am someone that is never happy with any one fit, if I loose I will adjust to make it win always. I also have at any given time over 300 fully fit PvP ships where I live at, many the same ships just different fits for different combat. EFT is a good tool to begin with, but after you find fits you think will work or will not, try them in sisi or real pvp and see, and adjust as needed. I do use EFT, I just don't rely on it.

6. Cynabals aren't always faster then Vagas, again goes to skills and fit. If I know a cyanbals wants to kite, then I know it's tank isn't the best, but in a Vaga I can still fit dual ASBs, or shield boost and hav the lows for speed and rigs and then I am faster with a better tank in everyway, and once I am in range I can scram it and it's done. If I am taken by surprised and can't get in range, well I'm still good as I can shield boost much better then Arties can rock me, and then I call friends, and hope they get there before the cynabals friends do. I know I won't win all fights, but having an idea of what my opponent is going to bring gives me a much better chance.

Posting a kill mail, of you killing a fail fit shield pest- with a blob of ships is not helping your AF case.

I was not trying to talk smack. Just looking at your KB's... Generally its a good way to see where someone is coming from / experience. I even prefaced that you were most likely an alt. Calm down.




I think that i am done here. I can't have logical discourse with this type of thinking.

I am sorry you took everything as a personal attack, didn't mean it to be that way. Your assumptions about many things are way off base. It was nice talking with you.

A fully T1 fit omen, that is missing a gun (presumably because he doesn't have the fitting room) Carrying no drones, 400 plate and STANDARD multifrequency only. Again these KM's are... really not helping your case.

Dont worry, RLM graphs regarding damage application will be provided when I get home.

Well as it seems I have to download the new patch for sisi, and as I am somewhere that could take half a day or so. I went to EFT

I fit a Cerb, no shield mods, only the missiles and 3 BDUs. This is what I got

HAM Cerb - 593 DPS, 1499 volley
RofF 2.5s
Explosion Velocity - 151.5m
Explosion Radius - 93.75m

RML Cerb - 327 DPS, 1238 volley
RofF 3.7s
Explosion Velocity - 255m
Explosion Radius - 30m

This part is just to show HACs sign radius
Cerb signature radius no MWD 133m
With MWD 473m
And this is without any type of shield module or rigs, so it's likely to be a bit higher.
Cerb speed with MWD over 1,700m/s

From the numbers with or without MWD HACs will get smashed by HAMs worse then with RLMs. The DPS differance is just too much to say HAMs wouldn't rock a HAC, and really the HAMs Explos Radius to the Cerb sign and speed it isn't going to drop the HAMs so much that they won't do a good amount of DPS. And any other facors, will effect the RLMs just as equal has HAMs, like resist, and such
I did your EFT and it agrees with me. Once sisi is up and as long as the rapids haven't been changed to 40s reload I'll test T1 cruisers, faction cruisers and HACs with both also. But again I already did is and the differance between HAMs and RMLs were around 5 to 10 per hit, and again as the HAMs shoot over a sec faster, their DPS would still be above RMLs.

That is a graph, a graph that doesn't really explain well really anything at all. Like I said before I want to see live test, those logs, numbers, fits etc. I'll do it today after my shift and get back to you. So far the test and EFT both seem to agree HAMs, but I'll do the test again for ya, it be fun.

Conversely it could also be taken- that HML and HAM's need to be buffed. They can't even apply damage to ******* cruisers. Its pathetic.

Hmmm....but buffing everything up just results in massive power creep.

And TBH I haven't, nor have my mates who fly missile cruiser way more than I do, had much of an issue doing excellent damage with HAMs once they are in range. HML are pretty much on par (slightly lagging with the recent buffs) with other long range weapons.