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Why does null-sec want to conquer high-sec?

Author
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#181 - 2013-11-15 20:15:26 UTC
I don't think anyone wants to conquer hisec per se...but in the eyes of most null pilots, hisec is ripe for a culling. Don't deny it. If you fly through hisec how often do you wish you could just arbitrarily open your guns up on anyone and everyone.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#182 - 2013-11-15 20:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Captain Tardbar wrote:



Well I think you are displaying "I can't see MY advantages, but yours make me cry." type of null sec mentality.

Really, I don't expect you to see that your freedom is worth any amount of effort. Most people in so called democracies around the world don't see that freedom requires efforts and sacrifices. They would prefer more money anyways than freedom.


This is left field nonsense. It would suggest I and people like me are looking for more money or a free ride. How obtuse could you be, did you not read my post and see me say exactly that?

Quote:

What bothers most people is thy see people who live in a different location and think to themselves they deserve as much money as they get because they sacrifice more. Hrm... This is one of those human bias things so I can understand why you would never be able to wrap your head around it. Its ok. Your human. You will always think the grass is greener on the other side no matter how much herbicide you get the powers to be to dump on that said lawn.


This is proof is something I've always thought about you. you're prone to projection. You're the one living in EVE's welfare "everything is free yay" paradise.

That grass is greener quip is especially galling. How can the grass I'm standing on be greener?

I say that because I'm talking from a point of view of experiencing BOTH SIDES. I play in high sec about as much as I do in null. I'm as likely to be flying a machariel in a high sec incursion as I am doing a forsaken hub. And as someone who is on both sides of the grass, i'm telling you, high sec rewards are out of whack in regards to isk, effort and balance.

Quote:

You will always hate high sec and it will always make you hot and bothered.

But you and I will be playing Star Citizen in 10 years because they shut down the EVE servers anyways so its a moot point.

I'm on a roll today.


You can pretend you are joking, but the above is what you actually believe. You lack the ability to criticize your own ideas (if you did, you'd see the flaws before posting them), that's why you tend to be wrong.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#183 - 2013-11-15 20:37:24 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
I don't think anyone wants to conquer hisec per se...but in the eyes of most null pilots, hisec is ripe for a culling. Don't deny it. If you fly through hisec how often do you wish you could just arbitrarily open your guns up on anyone and everyone.


It's funny because it's true.
Pezazz
Kitsune Corporation
#184 - 2013-11-15 21:09:52 UTC
It seems to me CCP understands that a status quo is boring. The poco thing is a great way to shake up high sec and I would not be surprised if plans are already forming to break the relative peace in nul in the near future. This is good. When a sandbox becomes static it becomes a theme park.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#185 - 2013-11-16 00:31:52 UTC
Pezazz wrote:
It seems to me CCP understands that a status quo is boring. The poco thing is a great way to shake up high sec and I would not be surprised if plans are already forming to break the relative peace in nul in the near future. This is good. When a sandbox becomes static it becomes a theme park.


I agree with the sentiment expressed above, all spaces need tweaks and fixes though to make them more interesting, more profitable and to further drive conflict on all levels.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#186 - 2013-11-16 00:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
"Why does null-sec want to conquer high-sec?"

Because it is there.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#187 - 2013-11-16 00:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jenn aSide wrote:

This is left field nonsense. It would suggest I and people like me are looking for more money or a free ride. How obtuse could you be, did you not read my post and see me say exactly that?


Well you are, aren't you? I mean you see someone who you believe earns more money than you think they should compared to how much money you make and you are saying that you believe that you deserve more money.

Isn't that what you are saying? You either want more money by increasing your own wallet or by decreasing those who you don't approve of thereby increasing your wallet.

The only thing that would sound unbiased is that if I said (being a citizen of high sec), "You know maybe those people in null-sec should get more money." because its not my own wallet in question. You know I most likely would not mind it that much if null sec got a buff nor would I be bothered by high sec getting a nerf, but from my understanding of the complaint that isn't enough.

Quote:
This is proof is something I've always thought about you. you're prone to projection. You're the one living in EVE's welfare "everything is free yay" paradise.


I'm not really projecting I'm just stating that you as a human have a bias about your personal preferences. I could most likely back this up with scientific studies if you want me to. I don't mind it if you can't see that you have a bias, because humans most of the time can't.

Quote:
That grass is greener quip is especially galling. How can the grass I'm standing on be greener?


Maybe I wrote that on. I'm saying you think high sec's grass is greener and it makes you mad so you demand herbicide be put on it to make your side looke better.

Quote:
I say that because I'm talking from a point of view of experiencing BOTH SIDES. I play in high sec about as much as I do in null. I'm as likely to be flying a machariel in a high sec incursion as I am doing a forsaken hub. And as someone who is on both sides of the grass, i'm telling you, high sec rewards are out of whack in regards to isk, effort and balance.


Again, I'm going to chalk this up to personal opinion and bias. We've had these discussesions before and we have asked for numerical proof other than anecdotal observation and not even Tippia was able to provide a page of numbers provided by CCP to prove the point one way or another.

Its ok. I don't blame you for thinking the way you do. You are only human and you think that your opinion is right because of confirmation bias.

Quote:
You can pretend you are joking, but the above is what you actually believe. You lack the ability to criticize your own ideas (if you did, you'd see the flaws before posting them), that's why you tend to be wrong.


Oh this one is easy. I am also human and therefore sometimes have biases about what I believe so they maybe under question on occasion and sometimes I lack the comprehension to grasp quantum physics at lower levels. See. Self critizicism. Sometimes I have the idea that I can spell. But then I can say also I can't spell. I just proved you wrong again.

Look. I don't know if Star Citizen will have a functioning economy or not on par with EVE which is the criteria to for me to play it more than EVE. I certainly will most likely investigate its purchase.

I just like brining it up because it seems to bother people. They seem to have an emotional attachment... Nay a fanboyish attachment to the products they use and get all mad when people question their world view.

I say hatred and open criticism will improve a product. Simply showering them with praise and larels will only cause the product to stagnante with self-congradulations.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#188 - 2013-11-16 03:02:18 UTC
Because there are thousands of capsuleers flying around NOT PAYING RENT to anybody.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.

Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#189 - 2013-11-16 03:04:47 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
Because there are thousands of capsuleers flying around NOT PAYING RENT to anybody.


Renter: someone who hasn't figured out how cloaks and wormholes work.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#190 - 2013-11-16 03:50:09 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Because there are thousands of capsuleers flying around NOT PAYING RENT to anybody.


Renter: someone who hasn't figured out how cloaks and wormholes work.


I used one for a shopping trip yesterday, and I've used one to do sansha exploration from my system, knowing that my end of the WH was covered by our intel channel.

Other advantages of being resident are docking rights and hardpoints like a pos, where I can store a pile of things that is too large to fit into your exploration ship like bubbles, spare ammo and drones, I can always fit or ship select to counter the hull you are flying, and I have a spare pile of ships, many of which have been brought out here purely for the purpose of engaging.

ie I can repeatedly seek engagements, and I can do easier PVE with a ship prepared to engage because even if I lose, I'll pop out again in the local station, and I'll get another ship and I'll do it again. Neutral traffic is lower in sov systems, and its more easily discouraged.

The tactical situation that faces you was well described by the german ww2 doctrine of cruiser warfare, and in the face of you attempting that, I'll adopt the successful british strategy of forcing material damage on you, which constrains your future actions.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#191 - 2013-11-16 03:53:24 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
Because there are thousands of capsuleers flying around NOT PAYING RENT to anybody.

hey, how are your renters doing

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2013-11-16 03:57:18 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Karrl Tian wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Because there are thousands of capsuleers flying around NOT PAYING RENT to anybody.


Renter: someone who hasn't figured out how cloaks and wormholes work.


I used one for a shopping trip yesterday, and I've used one to do sansha exploration from my system, knowing that my end of the WH was covered by our intel channel.

Other advantages of being resident are docking rights and hardpoints like a pos, where I can store a pile of things that is too large to fit into your exploration ship like bubbles, spare ammo and drones, I can always fit or ship select to counter the hull you are flying, and I have a spare pile of ships, many of which have been brought out here purely for the purpose of engaging.

ie I can repeatedly seek engagements, and I can do easier PVE with a ship prepared to engage because even if I lose, I'll pop out again in the local station, and I'll get another ship and I'll do it again. Neutral traffic is lower in sov systems, and its more easily discouraged.

The tactical situation that faces you was well described by the german ww2 doctrine of cruiser warfare, and in the face of you attempting that, I'll adopt the successful british strategy of forcing material damage on you, which constrains your future actions.


Another satisfied customer of the Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere. Cool
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2013-11-16 04:55:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Or, every part of space can be equally viable, and not with one head and shoulders above the rest?


B..But Providences shittyness is part of its charm!

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.

Pezazz
Kitsune Corporation
#194 - 2013-11-16 21:56:51 UTC
It seems there is a lot of misunderstanding about what the purpose of high sec is Big smile

High sec is not designed to be safe. It's designed to provide structure to conflict, not the lack of conflict.

Null and low are self organising their fights. High sec funnels players into fights through more or less predictable rules.

Anyone complaining that high sec is losing it's supposed 'safe' status is missing the point entirely.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#195 - 2013-11-17 07:47:51 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
The direction of Rubicon and recent events make me wonder why null groups even care about high-sec. Mocking them I understand, but why be so fervent about destroying the mechanics of high-sec? Null already has their own space, and if high-sec brings more subscribers into the game then that gives CCP more money to develop the game for everyone, doesn't it?

So I did a qoogle search and found this topic in a thread from a year ago: Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

Which referenced this article in the body: The Big Lie: The Fallacies of Demonisation

I think these are well worth the read for newer subscribers.

It seems the people in null really aren't that happy. Either they're in a system they control with not much they want to do, or they're in a massive battle with TIDI, bubbles, being a spec in a blob, or waiting for their FC to tell them what to do next. So they look over at high-sec and think what a fat, juicy target that they could completely burn and destroy in about three days. Damn the consequences because it would be a lot of fun for those three days.

Instead of sacrificing high-sec, maybe it would be better for CCP to figure out how to make the null alliances happy with where they are.



Confirming, the OP did not get the point of Malcanis' article.

The truth is, that Null and High sec need each other. The only place to get things like T2 modules and hulls...high sec. The only place to get the inputs to make T2 modules and hulls...null sec.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#196 - 2013-11-17 07:50:36 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
Also OP: Did you even read the Malcanis article you linked?

If you did, you obviously only focused on the half dealing with high sec and completely ignored the half dealing with null sec.
Because the whole article actually revolved around why threads like this are stupid.



I'm new, so I'm still trying to learn the mechanics, psychology and community of the game. I'm learning first hand what it's like to try to climb the massive learning curve and gain a foothold in high-sec. I only learn second hand about null and low via blogs and what that group posts on these forums or reddit. I posted that thread and the article because they show both sides of the argument which I think is valuable (especially to newer players like myself).

I'm sure it's not the opinion of everyone in null, but 'tear down these walls' is a common refrain. If you did, I think there would be almost no new players in Eve. I sure wouldn't have stayed past the trial if every time I undocked I was in the middle an alliance turf battle and had to pay a tax to both sides. Or shanghaied, given a cheap frigate and ordered to go out there and die. Bear

Rubicon makes me nervous because of the POCO change and the 'no turning back' slogan. I guess we'll find out what that means soon enough.


It means you might be paying your PI taxes to a group of players vs. having the taxes disappear....

The markets might see some volatility, but eventually people will realize there is money in POCOs and things will settle down.

Sheeesh. Can't believe I had to explain that.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#197 - 2013-11-17 08:21:45 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Confirming, the OP did not get the point of Malcanis' article.

The truth is, that Null and High sec need each other. The only place to get things like T2 modules and hulls...high sec. The only place to get the inputs to make T2 modules and hulls...null sec.


Those things are in nullsec. Goo is in lowsec. T2 modules built in null sit and rot on the market for 3 months at a time because its easier to just import a fully fitted ship from Jita in a jumpfreighter.

The _actual_ things that are not supplied in sov null directly. (minor exceptions for the odd drop).

skillbooks.
generic attribute implants.
hardwirings.
infinite isk agents.
blueprint originals.
detector arrays.
ihubs
tcu's
sbu's.

ie stuff thats really important to your corp members, or stuff thats real important to running a corp.

As far as conflict goes, it amuses me that a single good null system can support an active 200 character corp and needs care to manage peak login period (ie beyond about 100 the corp has to be diffuse amongst TZs as about 15 ratters is the limit at any one time). A single highsec L4 agent can easily support a 500 man character corp and then some, where diffusion would only be required to manage TIDI. There are a fairly finite number of "good" nullsec systems btw.

Both are dangerous, as in a 500 character highsec corp will inevitably collect wardecs, and anyone in a -0.9 will attest for the fact that the local roams will gravitate towards their systems (because that is the safari park is located).

Regardless of where you are, there is not sufficient signatures to keep a single prober occupied in a single system, and regardless of where you are, mining m3 is pretty much flat and uneconomic for anything but a multiboxer.
Dasola
New Edens Freeports
#198 - 2013-11-17 12:12:42 UTC
Personally i dont believe there us this what you describe in OP.

To nullsec people, highsec is necessary evil. Thanks to manufacturing and easy of getting minerals in there. For example i live in nullsec and region where we live, markets are pretty dead. So we import stuff we need from highsec.

Relationship between highsec and nullsec players is more like i have Xbox, but i envy neighbors kid that has PlayStation. And vice versa. Even if both play game we want to play just fine....

Personally i like nullsec, but time to time also spend lots of time in highsec. And i dont hate either. They are different gameplay environments within same sandbox. Not all sand is equal in box... Some is finer, some is coarser. Some dark, some lighter color.

This is what creates this vibrant living game universe that makes headlines in game news sites. Game that pushes CCP to try brake barriers, because they know we will find way to test those new barriers as well.

We are Minmatar, Our ship are made of scraps, but look what our scraps can do...

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