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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1541 - 2013-11-15 17:32:04 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

HAMs however are not niche at all, i can't really see how you would think that. They have really good range for short range weapons. Applies dps pretty damn decently, especially on webbed targets and in many cases has selectable damage types..

are they perfect in all situations? No they will struggle against many things.. but so do all the other medium weapon systems.

Range is not a problem, damage application is. They are usable of course, just not nearly as good as medium turrets, which makes them kinda semi-niche. Try to hit a frigate or speedy cruiser with HAM's. What you can easily kill are noobs, with skilled pilot you will struggle even if you are skilled yourself. Turrets are different cause with good piloting you can make a difference. Web makes everything better, sure thing but... it's not always easy to fit web on a shield tanked ship.


You're talking about this like the other medium weapons have great application..

Blasters have no range what so ever. Pulses have terrible tracking. Ac's are relatively low dps and not great at range.

And i cannot think of a single HAM ship that doesn't have the mids to fit a tank and a web... Yes HAM's struggle to apply damage to some targets.. but so do the other weapon systems.. even more so in some cases..

A webbed ab frigate will still take between 15-25% damage from hams. Even at full speed.

A pulse laser ship won't be able to do 1% damage to a frigate orbiting it at 40% speed. But instead its better at killing said frigate at its optimal. Its a trade off.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1542 - 2013-11-15 17:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
AC don't have terrible damage and never have. Lasers, if you use the small version can track and take out frigates and destroyers with easy usually, blasters don't have much range, but if you get in ther range or you use a Caldari blast boat which gives them pretty alright range, you will rock whatever you are attacking, the amount of damage blasters do, little will stand up against them. And range guns usually always nail their target no matter the size of target or size of guns. It's not umcommon to see 1400mm, or 425mm or etc take out frigates and destroyers with little issue one on one even. When was the last time you saw a cruise boat or torp boat take a frigate out one on one? Rapids aren't OP at all, and if the issue is that they can hit far and do what close guns can, find I'm game change raipds into HAMs and rockets, so they don't get such range.
Ju0ZaS
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1543 - 2013-11-15 17:51:07 UTC
This is just... a bad idea. If you're so unsatisfied with the current state, how about just slightly nerfing the current dps that you can get with rapids and introducing your current design as completely new weapon systems that you could add to the game instead of replacing the current rapids with this nonsense.

-1 on your current idea from me.

Are you going to fight me or do you expect to bore me to death with your forum pvp?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1544 - 2013-11-15 18:31:53 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
And range guns usually always nail their target no matter the size of target or size of guns. It's not umcommon to see 1400mm, or 425mm or etc take out frigates and destroyers with little issue one on one even. When was the last time you saw a cruise boat or torp boat take a frigate out one on one?

Haha ! Man we are talking about moving target and fight, not dedock sniping ! A large LR turret won't hit a moving frigate bellow 40km !
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1545 - 2013-11-15 18:39:21 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
AC don't have terrible damage and never have. Lasers, if you use the small version can track and take out frigates and destroyers with easy usually, blasters don't have much range, but if you get in ther range or you use a Caldari blast boat which gives them pretty alright range, you will rock whatever you are attacking, the amount of damage blasters do, little will stand up against them. And range guns usually always nail their target no matter the size of target or size of guns. It's not umcommon to see 1400mm, or 425mm or etc take out frigates and destroyers with little issue one on one even. When was the last time you saw a cruise boat or torp boat take a frigate out one on one? Rapids aren't OP at all, and if the issue is that they can hit far and do what close guns can, find I'm game change raipds into HAMs and rockets, so they don't get such range.



So why do Ac ships need a double dps bonus to match other ships?

And when you say small version of lasers do you mean SMALL guns or do you mean Focused medium pulses. Actually it doesn't really matter which one you mean because the first is dumb and the second is wrong. Focused mediums don't track frigs at all unless they have next to no transversal on you.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1546 - 2013-11-15 19:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

You're talking about this like the other medium weapons have great application..

Not great, good. Unlike HAM's, which are not so good.

Quote:

Blasters have no range what so ever. Pulses have terrible tracking. Ac's are relatively low dps and not great at range.

Pulses have good enough tracking that you can kill a frigate if you know how. Same with other two systems, you can use them to your advantage, which you cannot do in the same way with heavy assault missiles.

Quote:

And i cannot think of a single HAM ship that doesn't have the mids to fit a tank and a web... Yes HAM's struggle to apply damage to some targets.. but so do the other weapon systems.. even more so in some cases..

Sure you can fit web if you're happy leaving two mids for tank. I'm just saying that sometimes you are not.

Quote:

A webbed ab frigate will still take between 15-25% damage from hams. Even at full speed.

And how much if it's not webbed - 5%, 6..?

Quote:

A pulse laser ship won't be able to do 1% damage to a frigate orbiting it at 40% speed. But instead its better at killing said frigate at its optimal. Its a trade off.

Yes, it is - the one where you can do up to 80% damage or more to a webbed Merlin if everything is done properly. Just try to compare HAM Cerb and pulse Zealot, both with webs and faction ammo and hopefully you'll see that Zealot has (EDIT: could have) at least 50% better damage application.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1547 - 2013-11-15 19:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Pulses have good enough tracking that you can kill a frigate if you know how. Same with other two systems, you can use them to your advantage, which you cannot do in the same way with heavy assault missiles.

HAM have enough application that you can kill a frigate if you know how. You cannot do in the same way with turrets.
:D
I too master the "always true" statement ; butI know it's a poor way to argue.

Quote:
And how much if it's not webbed - 5%, 6..?
In France, we have an expression which translate into "with 'if's we could put Paris into a bottle."
How much damage will your turrets do to a closely orbiting frigate ? Answer is 0 and 5 is still superior to 0.

Quote:
Yes, it is - the one where you can do up to 80% damage or more to a webbed Merlin if everything is done properly. Just try to compare HAM Cerb and pulse Zealot, both with webs and faction ammo and hopefully you'll see that Zealot has (EDIT: could have) at least 50% better damage application.

If everything is done properly, HAM Cerb will do a lot of damage to a fully tackled and painted Merlin. This is another "if everything is perfect" scenario for turrets against a "if everything goes wrong" for missiles ; in other words, an always true statement.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1548 - 2013-11-15 20:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

HAM have enough application that you can kill a frigate if you know how. You cannot do in the same way with turrets. :D
I too master the "always true" statement ; butI know it's a poor way to argue.

"If you know how" means at proper distance, with proper positioning etc. There is no proper distance with missiles in the same way, nor can you achieve much with positioning.

Quote:

In France, we have an expression which translate into "with 'if's we could put Paris into a bottle."
How much damage will your turrets do to a closely orbiting frigate ? Answer is 0 and 5 is still superior to 0.

Well, if frigate isn't webbed your damage will be about 10% and that only if you have perfect precision skills. Answer is zero, yes but "if you know how" you can shoot closer to the end of your optimal / end of web range, where your damage will be highest. You can't do such a thing with missiles.

Quote:

If everything is done properly, HAM Cerb will do a lot of damage to a fully tackled and painted Merlin. This is another "if everything is perfect" scenario for turrets against a "if everything goes wrong" for missiles ; in other words, an always true statement.

Of course, if everything goes wrong (no web, short orbit, bad tracking... you name it), you won't do any damage but that's the thing - with your experience and good piloting you can make the difference. Something you cannot do nearly as good using missiles. Too much depends on how small your target is and how fast it is moving so if you have under-performing weapon like HAM's, you can press F1, orbit and almost sit on your hands for the rest of the fight... doesn't matter.
Suleiman al-Amarr
Doomheim
#1549 - 2013-11-15 20:14:25 UTC
Julian DeCroix wrote:
As a primarily PvE pilot, I've greatly enjoyed flying my Caracal with RLMLs in missions, anomalies and escalations in which I have to deal with dozens of frigate-class ships with a smattering of cruiser-size targets. Anything smaller than a cruiser has trouble fitting the necessary tank, let alone fit a salvager/tractor/salvage drones; a larger ship often is not permitted, and standard mid-size weapon systems frequently cannot apply enough damage to small targets to be useful (at least, not without sacrificing a significant portion of tank, which defeats the purpose of bringing the larger hull to begin with). The cruiser using a juiced-up small weapon system is the perfect solution.


^ This.

Forever faithful to the Imperial Academy.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1550 - 2013-11-15 20:31:38 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

HAM have enough application that you can kill a frigate if you know how. You cannot do in the same way with turrets. :D
I too master the "always true" statement ; butI know it's a poor way to argue.

"If you know how" means at proper distance, with proper positioning etc. There is no proper distance with missiles in the same way, nor can you achieve much with positioning.

Quote:

In France, we have an expression which translate into "with 'if's we could put Paris into a bottle."
How much damage will your turrets do to a closely orbiting frigate ? Answer is 0 and 5 is still superior to 0.

Well, if frigate isn't webbed your damage will be about 10% and that only if you have perfect precision skills. Answer is zero, yes but "if you know how" you have the option to shoot close to the end of your optimal / end of web range, where your damage will be highest. You can't do such a thing with missiles.

Quote:

If everything is done properly, HAM Cerb will do a lot of damage to a fully tackled and painted Merlin. This is another "if everything is perfect" scenario for turrets against a "if everything goes wrong" for missiles ; in other words, an always true statement.

Of course, if everything goes wrong (no web, short orbit, bad tracking... you name it), you won't do any damage but that's the thing - with your experience and good piloting you can make the difference. Something you cannot do nearly as good using missiles. Too much depends on how small your target is and how fast it is moving so if you have under-performing weapon like HAM's, you can press F1, orbit and sit on your hands for the rest of the fight... doesn't matter.


But hams and hml aren't meant for defrigging...

Its like complaining about 425s not hitting close range frigs when you have no tracking enhancers or don't switch to titanium sabot. Your trying to kill something that the weapon platform was not designed around. Its a medium weapon system meant for hitting medium sized targets. Add rigors/flares and tp to your hml fits or webscram on ham fits. That is the equivalent to te or metastasis rigs, that help apply the dps better.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#1551 - 2013-11-15 20:38:56 UTC
Garv mate I'd stop trying to educate closed minded bad players. They cannot comprehend the simple truth of what you are describing to them.

Just stick the ear plugs in mate and ignore their whining. Lol

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1552 - 2013-11-15 20:39:47 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

But hams and hml aren't meant for defrigging...

I know. Please, do me a favor if not too much to ask. Read more than you just did and then comment.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1553 - 2013-11-15 21:03:00 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

But hams and hml aren't meant for defrigging...

I know. Please, do me a favor if not too much to ask. Read more than you just did and then comment.



You mention hams underperforming on small quick moving targets in your last paragraph. Seems to indicate frigate to me. Of course hams are **** if the target isn't scrammed or web. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, or didnt feel like reading 70 pages to find it. but the general consensus that I'm reading is ppl don't want any sacrifice when fitting hams or hml like it is with rlml. Just fill lows with bcus and shoot. Then moan when hams/hml suck at applying dps because they do the same thing on a ham or hml fit. No rigors/flares tps/web or hell, even crash booster. Yea.. that's what happens when you go for max paper dps.

Worst case scenario? You should factor in the more common scenarios into the fits.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1554 - 2013-11-15 21:08:31 UTC
So I must've missed the part where the power grid requirements for RLMLs got bumped...

Quote:
Rapid Light Missile Launcher I
Fitting: 72 PG, 35 CPU
Rate of fire: 7.8s
Charge capacity: 16
Reload time: 40s

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Fitting: 76 PG, 39 CPU
Rate of fire: 6.2s
Charge capacity: 18
Reload time: 40s

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1555 - 2013-11-15 21:08:59 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:


[quote]
Blasters have no range what so ever. Pulses have terrible tracking. Ac's are relatively low dps and not great at range.

Pulses have good enough tracking that you can kill a frigate if you know how. Same with other two systems, you can use them to your advantage, which you cannot do in the same way with heavy assault missiles.


I must assume that by "If you know how" you mean if you have them at 20-30 km away from you and you're using scorch.

Because even with dual webs a zealot cannot track a close orbiting KESTREL, let alone a fast frig.


Are pulse lasers better at popping frigates at 20 km? Yes, by quite a lot.

They are also absolutely unable to do it in scram range.

Again, trade off.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1556 - 2013-11-15 21:15:41 UTC
Gentleman.. this is not a thread about LASERS!!! ITs a thread about the anihilation of rapid launchers from game

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1557 - 2013-11-15 21:19:57 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

You mention hams underperforming on small quick moving targets in your last paragraph. Seems to indicate frigate to me. Of course hams are **** if the target isn't scrammed or web. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, or didnt feel like reading 70 pages to find it. but the general consensus that I'm reading is ppl don't want any sacrifice when fitting hams or hml like it is with rlml. Just fill lows with bcus and shoot. Then moan when hams/hml suck at applying dps because they do the same thing on a ham or hml fit. No rigors/flares tps/web or hell, even crash booster. Yea.. that's what happens when you go for max paper dps.

Worst case scenario? You should factor in the more common scenarios into the fits.

I agree with you but there's more to it. I don't feel like explaining 70 pages so I guess we're cool.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1558 - 2013-11-15 21:35:00 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So I must've missed the part where the power grid requirements for RLMLs got bumped...

Quote:
Rapid Light Missile Launcher I
Fitting: 72 PG, 35 CPU
Rate of fire: 7.8s
Charge capacity: 16
Reload time: 40s

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II
Fitting: 76 PG, 39 CPU
Rate of fire: 6.2s
Charge capacity: 18
Reload time: 40s


It's been mentioned several times in this thread. They have beaten the hell out of RLMLs with the nerf bat. It's ridiculous.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1559 - 2013-11-15 21:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

I must assume that by "If you know how" you mean if you have them at 20-30 km away from you and you're using scorch.

Because even with dual webs a zealot cannot track a close orbiting KESTREL, let alone a fast frig.

Are you sure? According to EFT you can do it in scram / web range using INM crystals (0.1 tracking) and somewhere between 9 and 10 km your applied damage should be about 80%. EFT aside, I remember doing it while testing things on numerous occasions but at the moment I cannot confirm EFT numbers with certainty.

EDIT: If you overheat your web and with flying to negate transversal at 11 km (where INM optimal ends) you could be able to do near full damage to afterburner fitted Merlin. Sadly, I'm unable to repeat the same fighting simulation these days so I can't tell what correct numbers are.
Hi O
l'.
#1560 - 2013-11-15 21:37:30 UTC
Can't wait to strap this on my Nemesis.

That is , until Rubicon 1.1 and the inevitable "Can Be Fit To" makes me mortal once again.