Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So guys, 0

There's a vibe around of how overpowered logi is. Like, to counter a pair of 2 Guardian Pilots (just for example), you either need the numbers, or the appropriate ewar (Like in: 'Okay, we will maybe face Guardians, we totally need 2 Curses, a Falcon and an Arazu with us - just in case.')

Generally, I'm more leaned towards the opinion that Logi is fine and that there are enough viable counters around, and that people just don't put the thinking-effort into it to counter them.


However, i just had a ... let's say revelation. Like, how about totally changing the way logistics work. There are ideas like making Remote Reps behave like Ancillary Reps so they would overperform the current modules for a set amount of time, determined by the amount of charges, and then would have to make the decision to either reload, or keep repping with lower performance.
To be honest, i think this is ... bad.

What has come to my mind though might be simply removing remote Reps/ Shields / Hull. Now, how to keep your fleet alive you ask. Simple:

Logistic Ships get redesigned into heavily, heavily tanked ships. Like, with a Tech 2 fit and Links going, you should be looking at something like 250k EHP or even more. Because what they will do is not repairing the damage a ship has taken, but redirecting a huge portion of damage incoming to itself as long as it is assisting the ship/ships.

So how that might actually work out is the following:

There will be a Module, which can be fitted to any ship, but will be rolebonused on Ships dedicated to Logistics. Maybe a small one for use on frigates, a Medium one for use on Tech 1 Logistics, and a Large one for use on Battleships - and through fittingwise rolebonus on Tech 2 Logistics. And obviously, a Capital one, for use on Carriers.
Now there's a lot of stuff to think about: How much of damage will be incoming in a random encounter, how much of that damage will be redirected to the ship using the Logistics-Module, how will it actually work, what are the effects if a non-bonused ship will be using it, etc etc etc.

Here's just a rough idea i had for myself, scribbled down right now as it flows through my synapses:

The Module will behave similar to a Warp Disruption Field Generator - It creates a Bubble around it, all damage ships take within this bubble will partially be redirected to the ship creating the bubble. So, let's say just as an example here, 50% of the incoming damage will be redirected to the Logi-Bubble-Ship. In case of a Bombrun, this will basically mean: Logi down.
More Logis putting up Bubbles will have no effect - Only the one creating the first Bubble will be protecting the fleet. As long as it is using the Logistics-Module, it will not be able to be remote-assisted. So a second bubble will not split the damage that is brought onto the first Logi further onto a second Logi.
Which leads to following behaviour: The Logi TANKS the incoming damage as long as it feels comfortable. Then it has to step down, and another Logi has to take responsibility of saving the fleet.

The Module can also be scripted, to assist a single target. In that case, it will redirect a BY FAR bigger portion of incoming damage onto the logi-ship. Let's say, 90%. That means, for every 10 Ships shooting the primary, only one will actually chew through it's buffer - the other 9 will automatically chew through the Logi that is assisting it. Keep in mind, that Logi can NOT be remote assisted! It will have to feel the incoming damage and have to decide when to stop assisting the primary - in which case there better be a second logi already on it. And a third one immediately assisting the first one once it is able to do so. ...


Got the idea? No? Please ask me, i will try to explain then. In case you DID however, here's more detail:



Following this pattern, a maximiziation of EHP on the Logis themself is key to success, of course. However, now that Remote-Reps are gone, ... they will also have to rep that damage taken up, all by themself.

So a design for Logistics ship through Ship-Bonuses and Attributes might be sketched like the following:

• Full Tech 2 Resistances
• 4(5?)% Armor or Shield Resistance per racial Cruiser Level
• 10% Armor Repair / Shield Boost Amount per racial Cruiser Level for Gallente / Minmatar Ships
• 10% Armor / Shield Hitpoints per racial Cruiser Level for Caldari / Amarr Ships
• 5% Reduction in Damage Taken through Assisting with Logistics-Module per Logistics Level for all of them
• 5% Increased Amount of Damage Redirected through Assisting with Logistics Module per Logistics Level for all of them.


• Huge array of primary tank-slots.
• Good Fitting for buffing up on ehp AS WELL as using local reps.
• Good Capacitor so making those local reps sustainable is achievable by minor fitting decisions.
• Good Chunk of main-tank raw-hitpoints (like, Battlecruisers have for example?)
• 3 Highslots, so it could actually fit, let's say, 3 of those modules. One for bubbling, 2 for saving primaries.

Now, let's get into field examples.

Let's say, there is small Fleet Engagement. For keeping the numbers simple, Fleet A will have a DPS-Potential of 5000 and is shooting Fleet B. Fleet B has 3 Logistic Ships. I'll just say Scimitars now, so we're looking at the active-tank focused ship rather than buffer-tank focused.
And to keep it really simple, we will just assume Fleet B is a sitting duck and won't shoot back. They just try to tank it for ... idk, deagressing, whatever.


Soooo...
my space is running out now. I will continue in a second post to sketch out some examplatory numbers and how a logistic scenario would look like in the heat of battle.

So Fleet A is shooting a Ship from Fleet B.

This ships is now called B-1.

B-1 has a Resistance Profile of 80 across the boeard and 20k raw hitpoints. This makes 100k EHP.
Fleet A will need 20 seconds of focused fire for B-1 to explode in a glorious ball of fire, taking 1000 raw damage every second.
However, Fleet B has Logistics with them.
So, LogiB has 30k Raw Hitpoints and a resistance profile of 90 across the board. This will make 300k EHP.
And now, LogiB is projecting it's Logi-Module (Scripted!) onto B-1.
Which means, B-1 will take only 10% of the damage it would normally take, which will be 100 raw damage per second.
The rest of the damage, which is 900 raw damage, will get projected onto the LogiB now, where LogiB's resistances will further reduce the damage taken to merely 90 raw Damage per second. Working against it's raw hitpoints, it will take 334 seconds of focus-fire onto B-1 for LogiB to blow up. By that time, however, B-1 will also already have blown up.
Now, of course, LogiB has also an active tank and will try to sustain the incoming damage for as long as possible.
Keep in mind, during that time, it can not be remote-assisted itself. No Cap-In, No projected ECCM, no other Logi from the team keeping it comfortable.


Now, what would the effects be?

Every Ship would aim for a balance of EHP, Resistances and Local-Tank. High resistances mean less incoming damage, means that damage is reduced even further in the process of logistic assistance. Which means, a personal local rep can keep up better with the incoming damage. Forgetting to add in EHP through Plates and Extenders though means, before Logi lock you up and project onto you, you might already have exploded.

A Logi-Ship would be a pita to kill - if it's getting logilove from another one. However, if this very logi is having a Bubble or a scripted module online, it CAN NOT be remote assisted. Thus, to take it down, you simply direct fire onto it. The damage you apply to it is simply not getting reduced by anyone, it's the same scenario as now - You volley him, while he desperately tries to keep repping himself. Keep in mind, reps need cap, and since he can't get remote assisted, you can alpha-nuke him with ease - shutting down is whole tanking potential until he turns off his Logimods, and gets assisted on his own. In which case he might be able to rep up again, cause he's getting the damage reduced by resistances, and then furthermore reduced by the logi assisting him.




A few more behaviour details of the modules to give more of an idea:

They would not have a cycletime. They would be activated, much like a cloak, so the Assistance is up with the next servertick. They would also be deactivated, also like a cloak, so the Assistance is dropped with the next servertick. It might also feature a reactivation delay like cloaks do, so it can't instantaneously put it onto another guy in dire need. This forces the logi into communication with the other logis.

If a target is affected by one Logisticseffect, only a stronger one can - and will - override it. This means: One Logi might be having a Bubble up, reducing all the damage the fleet would take by 50%, and another one might cycle the Primaries. In which case the 'Bubbleeffect' on the primary get's overridden by the scripted effect. No stacking. Once a scripted effect is online, no second scripted effect can be onlined on the target. The module will fizzle and simply not activate, giving a notification like 'The target is already being assisted and thus can not be assisted furthermore'.

This leads to following behaviour: If the first Logi assiting the primary has to step down, there is a gap until the second logi assists. During that period of time, the primary will take full damage. Balancing of EHP and Resistances! High Resistance Low EHP? Dead.
High EHP low Resistance?
Well, your Logi's will have to switch very often on you because they just get facemelted if they assist you for too long. Also, your very own localrep is so unefficient you will certainly die - rather sooner than later.


'Buffer' Logis would be there to eat a huge chunk of damage before it has to stand down ---> good in huge fleet fights with lots of logis, where they will have a good amount of time to rep up again before they need to get into action again.

'Active' Logis would be there to sustain lower incoming damage for long time ---> good on skirmishing situations where you have maybe 2 other Logis with you to coordinate.


Other effects: Squishy targets like Tackle or Ewar can get pre-cycled so they don't get alpha'd that easily. However, their usually low resistance-profile will be a pita for the logi.

Shooting Targets with low resistances is priority, as this will put more pressure onto the logi than it does now.
Now: Either the reps suffice and the primary is saved, or they don't and it dies shortly.
Then: Low Resistance means own local tank will be overwhelmed quickly, while the logi itself will take heavy damage for that time and will ALSO strugge to keep it's own tank running.

Switching Fire onto a Logistics that is confirmed to be assisting right now is hiugh priority, as you might volley through him before other logi can save him. Switching back the the old primary is also interesting, as it will most likely be not assisted anymore and thus also die very quick.


Okay, now i don't know what more to say, so:

Discussion open!

Your thought on current State of Logi?

Your thoughts on my idea?



Sincerly,

Syrias Bizniz

Those rays contain energy to recharge shields and/or nanobots to patch armor/hull and thus make much more sense than your idea.

Your turn to explain.

Nanobots.

Then you'll have to explain what would happen if:

1. enemy fires from within the Logisticsmodule bubble
2. your own fleet fires from within the bubble someone outside or inside the bubble.
3. your anti-frigate support fleet outside of logi bubble shoots enemy inside bubble.

Should that module work in case 1 and should your logi pilot die from friendly fire in case 2 and 3?

Also: armor doesnt have nanobots innately, but those can be supplied from local rep module or from remote ship (via reverse tractor beams), nanobots have limited resources so they can work only for a limited time and then return for recharge or dissolve.

1. Look up what railgun is and how it works. Projectile bullets can carry their load (EM shockwave, explosive or incendiary), while same type of ammo would be destroyed during acceleration in railgun (and possibly damage railgun itself in the process).
2. They did (actually all races did): base resistances to EM/Therm are highest on armor.
3. Because of speed at which bullet is propelled and because there is no friction in space (optimal and falloff mechanic is just a fallacy for balance reasons)

Congratulations, you just voided all your posts on your own!

Now either contribute to the topic, or stfu.

Well, to answer question one: We're already at this point. For quite some time.
Question two: GOOD POINT! I have no idea.
Question three: I have not really thought of Carriers yet. But they could basically, ... just do the same thing. Where they hit Triage to get better local reps going.

I don't know, I'm not sold. I think that this is akin to taking a hammer where a scalpel may be needed.

If it's a simple matter of balance, why not just buff/nerf things?

Heh, this idea sounds exactly like the Iconus Guardian's ability from Sins of a Solar Empire XD.