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Why does null-sec want to conquer high-sec?
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Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-11-15 00:37:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Quote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


Well to start with most of null is worthless space that generates less income than even the worst high sec system with a level 4 agent in it.


Disagree with all of the above, I've earned shitloads of cash in null, and out earn any and every l4 mission I've done. That's because I don't safespot when people come through where I am operating. Cos I'm not a carebear.

I will finish by saying that Null Sec isn't about the money, that would be stupid, you go to null for freedom. The absolute freedom to do what you like, the consequences of which are your own...


Way to miss the point. What does what you posted have to do with the value of most null sec systems?

And yes, people go to null for the freedom, but they have to PAY for it somehow. For the average player, that means mining or ratting/exploration. After the anom nerf, the majority null sec system can't provide for one person the same kind of income over time a single high sec system with a lvl 4 mission agent can.

And that mission agent doesn't care if multiple people use him at once (he can give out infinite missions), even the best upgraded sov null system has a concrete upper limit on how many people it can support (ie, take the number of hubs, havens and sanctums that system will spawn, multiply by 2 and blam, you got the "better than high sec lvl 4s profitability limit of that system).


So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#162 - 2013-11-15 01:16:04 UTC
Quote:
So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?


No, it's the fault of whomever decided that 60% or more of nullsec space is worth less isk/hr than a L4 mission agent anywhere in highsec.

Which is, of course, pretty much the entire point of the null vs high debate.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#163 - 2013-11-15 01:20:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?


No, it's the fault of whomever decided that 60% or more of nullsec space is worth less isk/hr than a L4 mission agent anywhere in highsec.

Which is, of course, pretty much the entire point of the null vs high debate.


So your freedom to rule your own space isn't worth any isk? What I am trying to say is:

Is the freedom you get in null worth any sort of value to you?

If it is worth any sort of value, how much isk would you trade to give that freedom up if say CCP showed up and said "Look guys we are adding Concord to null sec, but for compensation we are going to let you name your own price for what you feel null sec was worth to you before this nerf?"

What is your number?

Certainly it wouldn't be zero.

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Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#164 - 2013-11-15 01:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


Hi Jen, not to be disrespectful, but I think you've misunderstood me. I am saying that null is more profitable than high sec if you stick around and take risks. Different things motivate different people, so for me freedom is important. I appreciate that some people are attracted to the big money of null as a carrot vs stick argument, but I personally find that some people (and I am not including you in this group) want the rewards of null without the risk.


Some individuals make a lot of isk in null, but the individual systems themselves are very difficult to characterise as more profitable than highsec, especially with the low *effort* moongoo nerfed.

goon tears about siphons eh


My point is more along the lines of an R64 isn't going to add 5bil of no effort isk to a system in this day and age (whether or not its being siphoned).

There is a moderate amount of sugar in nullsec systems, that is mirrored in highsec systems (because of the value and short extraction time of ded 4 loot, which cycles the sigs rapidly), and mission agents produce better spreads of loot and handle more concurrent users than military 5 anomolies do (and honestly a better basket if you have noctises reproccing than the rocks in my system do for miners).

Individual nullsec systems are actually kinda finite - and that is easily identified when you rent a system, and see other corps trying to -fit- moderate numbers of members into their systems without leaking and without being able to understand how much sugar is actually on offer amongst the grind content. I can tell when the CEOs don't understand the real numbers pretty quick.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#165 - 2013-11-15 02:29:27 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?


No, it's the fault of whomever decided that 60% or more of nullsec space is worth less isk/hr than a L4 mission agent anywhere in highsec.

Which is, of course, pretty much the entire point of the null vs high debate.


So your freedom to rule your own space isn't worth any isk? What I am trying to say is:

Is the freedom you get in null worth any sort of value to you?

If it is worth any sort of value, how much isk would you trade to give that freedom up if say CCP showed up and said "Look guys we are adding Concord to null sec, but for compensation we are going to let you name your own price for what you feel null sec was worth to you before this nerf?"

What is your number?

Certainly it wouldn't be zero.


So, to turn this around on you, are you making the argument that "freedom", that being freedom to shoot structures and not have acceptable manufacturing abilities (which means you are still shackled to highsec), somehow should require having to live in the most worthless space in the game?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#166 - 2013-11-15 02:41:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?


No, it's the fault of whomever decided that 60% or more of nullsec space is worth less isk/hr than a L4 mission agent anywhere in highsec.

Which is, of course, pretty much the entire point of the null vs high debate.


So your freedom to rule your own space isn't worth any isk? What I am trying to say is:

Is the freedom you get in null worth any sort of value to you?

If it is worth any sort of value, how much isk would you trade to give that freedom up if say CCP showed up and said "Look guys we are adding Concord to null sec, but for compensation we are going to let you name your own price for what you feel null sec was worth to you before this nerf?"

What is your number?

Certainly it wouldn't be zero.


So, to turn this around on you, are you making the argument that "freedom", that being freedom to shoot structures and not have acceptable manufacturing abilities (which means you are still shackled to highsec), somehow should require having to live in the most worthless space in the game?

remember test, the best among us, decided sov was not worth it

so they two whole regions of sov

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2013-11-15 03:07:34 UTC
The "freedom" of null versus high is more along the lines of the "freedom" from restrictive law and order you might get living in Somalia under the warlords versus living in say the US.



People tend to stay in highsec for a wide range of reasons including :

a) the starter schools are all in high (why is that ???) and once ppl are established in high they tend to stay there

b) there are a wide range of opportunities for good income, in particular PI, Missioning, FW and incursions all pay well.

c) there is nobody telling you how to play or what to do

d) you are fully independent, replacing your own ships when lost and deciding when to play and what to do.
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2013-11-15 04:34:03 UTC
There seems to be this misconception that people who are part of a powerbloc are *forced to do their leaders bidding* like some mindless drones or in some theories Ive seen: against their will.


Contrary to populair belief: If someone doesnt enjoy their current corporation/alliance, they are free to leave.
If they dont leave, clearly they are having fun.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#169 - 2013-11-15 04:45:13 UTC
KuroVolt wrote:
There seems to be this misconception that people who are part of a powerbloc are *forced to do their leaders bidding* like some mindless drones or in some theories Ive seen: against their will.

Contrary to populair belief: If someone doesnt enjoy their current corporation/alliance, they are free to leave.
If they dont leave, clearly they are having fun.

That's what you think, you haven't seen the horrors of the goons' powerbloc

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
MotherSammy
Clan Sammy Trade Empire
#170 - 2013-11-15 08:35:10 UTC
OP I would like to know how you made the logic leap from "capsuleers defying the empires" to "nullsec conquering highsec"
Daimon Kaiera
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#171 - 2013-11-15 10:57:46 UTC
MotherSammy wrote:
OP I would like to know how you made the logic leap from "capsuleers defying the empires" to "nullsec conquering highsec"

.... . .-.. .--. / .. / .... .- ...- . / ..-. .- .-.. .-.. . -. / .- -. -.. / .. / -.-. .- -. -. --- - / --. . - / ..- .--. / ... - --- .--. - .... .. ... / ... .. --. -. .- - ..- .-. . / .. -.. . .- / .. ... / -. --- - / ... - --- .-.. . -. / ... - --- .--.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2013-11-15 10:57:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
...
And yes, people go to null for the freedom...


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
...So, to turn this around on you, are you making the argument that "freedom", that being freedom to shoot structures and not have acceptable manufacturing abilities (which means you are still shackled to highsec), somehow should require having to live in the most worthless space in the game?


i guess 0.0 people should decide between themself why they are in 0.0 and what do they need BEFORE demanding anything from CCP

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Amber Kurvora
#173 - 2013-11-15 11:08:21 UTC
I honestly think it has a lot to do with people wanting the game to be played how they want it to be played, forgetting entirely the nature of the sandbox - you do what you want, when you want. Some of us just don't want to deal with null politics or mandatory ops, and others like Eve without dealing with the people trying to gank them on every gate. Personally I just like wandering around all threee K-space areas and seeing what I can find. Exploration for the time being is my thang, and to be honest I tend to my own thing a lot of the time. I like the freedom.

I need HS due to the fact I get anxiety bad. Really bad at times. If I lived all the time in Null or Low, I'd burn out on being so strung out, waiting for the next gate to be camped. I use HS as a place to chill out and play Eve when I don't want to be dealing with that.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#174 - 2013-11-15 11:16:48 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
...
And yes, people go to null for the freedom...


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
...So, to turn this around on you, are you making the argument that "freedom", that being freedom to shoot structures and not have acceptable manufacturing abilities (which means you are still shackled to highsec), somehow should require having to live in the most worthless space in the game?


i guess 0.0 people should decide between themself why they are in 0.0 and what do they need BEFORE demanding anything from CCP


Or, every part of space can be equally viable, and not with one head and shoulders above the rest?

You all should really stop defending your golden goose, it's obvious to anyone who cares to look by now.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#175 - 2013-11-15 19:30:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?


No, it's the fault of whomever decided that 60% or more of nullsec space is worth less isk/hr than a L4 mission agent anywhere in highsec.

Which is, of course, pretty much the entire point of the null vs high debate.


So your freedom to rule your own space isn't worth any isk? What I am trying to say is:

Is the freedom you get in null worth any sort of value to you?

If it is worth any sort of value, how much isk would you trade to give that freedom up if say CCP showed up and said "Look guys we are adding Concord to null sec, but for compensation we are going to let you name your own price for what you feel null sec was worth to you before this nerf?"

What is your number?

Certainly it wouldn't be zero.


So, to turn this around on you, are you making the argument that "freedom", that being freedom to shoot structures and not have acceptable manufacturing abilities (which means you are still shackled to highsec), somehow should require having to live in the most worthless space in the game?


You didn't answer the question which I thought was pretty straight forward.

How much is Null sec's freedom is worth to you? Would you rather not have it at all?

Are you just bothered that other people make more isk than you? Do you want freedom and more isk?

I mean if you want more isk as much as high sec, then shouldn't they take away your freedom and add concord and take away sov?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#176 - 2013-11-15 19:35:23 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?


No, it's the fault of whomever decided that 60% or more of nullsec space is worth less isk/hr than a L4 mission agent anywhere in highsec.

Which is, of course, pretty much the entire point of the null vs high debate.


So your freedom to rule your own space isn't worth any isk? What I am trying to say is:

Is the freedom you get in null worth any sort of value to you?

If it is worth any sort of value, how much isk would you trade to give that freedom up if say CCP showed up and said "Look guys we are adding Concord to null sec, but for compensation we are going to let you name your own price for what you feel null sec was worth to you before this nerf?"

What is your number?

Certainly it wouldn't be zero.


Tomorrow when one of my accounts is in need of more game time, i'ma right a letter to CCP detailing to them how I'm goin to use my "freedom" to buy plex instead of isk. I expect it to go over well.

BTW, what is the monetary value to you of the CONCORD protection and free docking rights to any station in high sec even if you have horrible standings to that faction that owns the station worth to you in isk?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#177 - 2013-11-15 19:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jenn aSide wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
So what you are saying is that the freedom you get in null sec isn't worth any amount of isk?

To be fair, I would agree when most of the people in null are slaves to their alliance/renter leaders, but that is really the fault of the people there now isn't it?


No, it's the fault of whomever decided that 60% or more of nullsec space is worth less isk/hr than a L4 mission agent anywhere in highsec.

Which is, of course, pretty much the entire point of the null vs high debate.


So your freedom to rule your own space isn't worth any isk? What I am trying to say is:

Is the freedom you get in null worth any sort of value to you?

If it is worth any sort of value, how much isk would you trade to give that freedom up if say CCP showed up and said "Look guys we are adding Concord to null sec, but for compensation we are going to let you name your own price for what you feel null sec was worth to you before this nerf?"

What is your number?

Certainly it wouldn't be zero.


Tomorrow when one of my accounts is in need of more game time, i'ma right a letter to CCP detailing to them how I'm goin to use my "freedom" to buy plex instead of isk. I expect it to go over well.

BTW, what is the monetary value to you of the CONCORD protection and free docking rights to any station in high sec even if you have horrible standings to that faction that owns the station worth to you in isk?


Well I am saying freedom has a price. I mean I can't just go up to people in high sec and shoot people I don't like who interfere with my business. I can't prevent people from using up all my research, copying, and manufacturing slots in the NPC stations. Sure I am protected, but then I have to deal with people with 20 accounts and eat all the belts up in 15 minutes without being able to remove them from the belts.

Also, don't get me started about the people who use up all the planets PI.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#178 - 2013-11-15 19:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Amber Kurvora wrote:
I honestly think it has a lot to do with people wanting the game to be played how they want it to be played, forgetting entirely the nature of the sandbox - you do what you want, when you want.


Incorrect. A sand box means "do what you want, when you want, IF your strong enough and smart enough to prevent others from stopping you".

I don't know where you people get that "people wanting the game to be played how they want it to be played" stuff from. I honestly don't I think it it's a very egotistical thing to believe that the whole world is smoehow jealous of how you play a video game.

No one cares how you play.


Quote:

Some of us just don't want to deal with null politics or mandatory ops, and others like Eve without dealing with the people trying to gank them on every gate. Personally I just like wandering around all threee K-space areas and seeing what I can find. Exploration for the time being is my thang, and to be honest I tend to my own thing a lot of the time. I like the freedom.


I'm an explorer too. The difference is that I understand the gamer I'm playing. I know I'm a PVE player in a game oriented towards PVP, and that people will try to kill me. part of playing the game is preventing people from PVPing me. You can't say "sandbox" and "leave me alone" at the same time.

Quote:

I need HS due to the fact I get anxiety bad. Really bad at times. If I lived all the time in Null or Low, I'd burn out on being so strung out, waiting for the next gate to be camped. I use HS as a place to chill out and play Eve when I don't want to be dealing with that.


Nothing wrong with living in high sec. No one cares if you never leave high sec. What i and people like me do talk about it the false and unrealistic expectations of high sec players. If you play EVE and you undock (and aren't a noob in a noob system or something like that), you (and i) are fair game.

If that kind of conflict causes undue real life anxiety for you in some way, I'm sorry if this sounds mean but you are playing the wrong video game. It's like an epileptic playing an MMO called "flashy flashy light show online".
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#179 - 2013-11-15 19:58:01 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Well I am saying freedom has a price. I mean I can't just go up to people in high sec and shoot people I don't like who interfere with my business. I can't prevent people from using up all my research, copying, and manufacturing slots in the NPC stations. Sure I am protected, but then I have to deal with people with 20 accounts and eat all the belts up in 15 minutes without being able to remove them from the belts.

Also, don't get me started about the people who use up all the planets PI.


Displaying the pretty standard "I can see MY disadvantages, but yours don't exist" mentality of many high sec residents. We see it all the time on these forums, as is null is some effortless magical land of milk and honey and it's really the guys in high sec protected by CONCORD and crimewatch who are truly toiling in misery lol

And yes you absolutely can shoot people in high sec who are doing the things you describe, with a wardec or a cheap destroyer lol.

Everything has a price. The price I pay for trying to do things in null sec (when I'm not saying "screw it" and logging on my high sec incursion alt, or my mission alt when I just want to chill) is that everyone can kill me without consequence. It's a price I willingly pay. That price is much higher than the minor inconveniences you mention. I don't even think the "rewards" we get in null should be higher than they are now, but the rewards of high sec (that I also partake in) are ridicules.

I'm just about to sell yet another Nomad set for a couple bil without having to break the least amount of sweat (or glance at local) getting them, thanks to Trust Partners high sec agent lol.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#180 - 2013-11-15 20:08:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:


Well I am saying freedom has a price. I mean I can't just go up to people in high sec and shoot people I don't like who interfere with my business. I can't prevent people from using up all my research, copying, and manufacturing slots in the NPC stations. Sure I am protected, but then I have to deal with people with 20 accounts and eat all the belts up in 15 minutes without being able to remove them from the belts.

Also, don't get me started about the people who use up all the planets PI.


Displaying the pretty standard "I can see MY disadvantages, but yours don't exist" mentality of many high sec residents.


Well I think you are displaying "I can't see MY advantages, but yours make me cry." type of null sec mentality.

Really, I don't expect you to see that your freedom is worth any amount of effort. Most people in so called democracies around the world don't see that freedom requires efforts and sacrifices. They would prefer more money anyways than freedom.

What bothers most people is thy see people who live in a different location and think to themselves they deserve as much money as they get because they sacrifice more. Hrm... This is one of those human bias things so I can understand why you would never be able to wrap your head around it. Its ok. Your human. You will always think the grass is greener on the other side no matter how much herbicide you get the powers to be to dump on that said lawn.

You will always hate high sec and it will always make you hot and bothered.

But you and I will be playing Star Citizen in 10 years because they shut down the EVE servers anyways so its a moot point.

I'm on a roll today.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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