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Supercarrier Rebalance When?

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Deathwing Reborn
#61 - 2013-11-14 22:24:28 UTC
I still say and have said many times the easiest way to balance supers it to introduce tech two normal capitals (carriers and Dreads). This would give you a midway pricepoint between capitals and supers and you can give them massive improvements against fighting super capitals.

The original problem with supers was not that they are easy to access or anything like that it was that the jump between capital and super capital was WAY to big and there was not enough put between them to counter them. It would be like if when even first started they had frigates and then introduced battleships and nothing in between. the difference between super and normal capital is the difference between frigate and capital is.

While on the subject I think they should have two types of tech two capital. One going for bigger ships and one optimized for subcaps.


PS: NOWHERE in here did I mention tech two super carriers or titans.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#62 - 2013-11-14 22:27:59 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
I still say and have said many times the easiest way to balance supers it to introduce tech two normal capitals (carriers and Dreads). This would give you a midway pricepoint between capitals and supers and you can give them massive improvements against fighting super capitals.


no.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Deathwing Reborn
#63 - 2013-11-14 22:32:49 UTC
Batelle wrote:

no.


Very informitive. Prehaps including even the remoteness of a creative response would instill even the slightest ammount of credibility to your response.
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-11-14 22:37:00 UTC
Just No
Obunagawe
#65 - 2013-11-14 23:00:08 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
Batelle wrote:

no.


Very informitive. Prehaps including even the remoteness of a creative response would instill even the slightest ammount of credibility to your response.


He's right though. At the capital/supercapital level the combatants are limited by the amount of ships that can be reasonably controlled by trusted players, not by cost.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-11-14 23:15:49 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
I still say and have said many times the easiest way to balance supers it to introduce tech two normal capitals (carriers and Dreads). This would give you a midway pricepoint between capitals and supers and you can give them massive improvements against fighting super capitals.


Except that nobody is going to fly such a ship in combat if it costs as much as a JF and dies to a DD or two.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
iskflakes
#67 - 2013-11-14 23:16:20 UTC
Supercarriers are well balanced right now. Dreads do a lot more DPS, carriers do a lot more rep. Supercarriers do both roles but less well than the specialized ships, which is how it should be. They are very vulnerable to subcaps and dreads. A lone supercarrier cannot defend itself against tacklers, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. It's unfortunate that more expensive ships don't die, but this is due to low risk taking by their pilots and not because the ships are too strong.

If you want to balance something, fix titans. They are so weak right now that there is no reason to use them (except for showing off).

-
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#68 - 2013-11-14 23:19:50 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Supercarriers are well balanced right now. Dreads do a lot more DPS, carriers do a lot more rep. Supercarriers do both roles but less well than the specialized ships, which is how it should be. They are very vulnerable to subcaps and dreads. A lone supercarrier cannot defend itself against tacklers, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. It's unfortunate that more expensive ships don't die, but this is due to low risk taking by their pilots and not because the ships are too strong.

If you want to balance something, fix titans. They are so weak right now that there is no reason to use them (except for showing off).

PL alt detected.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#69 - 2013-11-14 23:20:59 UTC
Leigh Akiga wrote:
wrote:
Supercapitals were never designed around being something individuals progressed towards. They were supposed to be alliance level assets - extremely powerful, extremely useful, extremely resource intensive. The idea was that alliances would have a handful of supercarriers and one titan.

Yeah, working towards one, actually just about ready to have that hull laid down. All so I can defend the mittani's alts against progodlegend

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#70 - 2013-11-14 23:21:54 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Supercarriers are well balanced right now. Dreads do a lot more DPS, carriers do a lot more rep. Supercarriers do both roles but less well than the specialized ships, which is how it should be. They are very vulnerable to subcaps and dreads. A lone supercarrier cannot defend itself against tacklers, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. It's unfortunate that more expensive ships don't die, but this is due to low risk taking by their pilots and not because the ships are too strong.

If you want to balance something, fix titans. They are so weak right now that there is no reason to use them (except for showing off).

Titan support for supercarriers.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-11-14 23:21:59 UTC
Just wondering what the downside is if you split Supers up into separate parts that can be locked and focused on by sub-caps(maybe even cruisers and below). Knowing which part is the weakest point to hit with sub-caps to take one down requires "creativity". Caps can't lock these "parts" and would have to still kill them like they currently do. This would tip all the power into sub-caps. Making Supers a great anti-cap, sov capturing ship that is vulnerable to a sizeable fleet of sub-caps, even when they batphone. I know this idea of some sort has gone around the block more times than the village bicycle but could someone point out the problem with this (apart from perhaps a bit of difficulty changing the code)?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#72 - 2013-11-14 23:34:10 UTC
The Hamilton wrote:
Just wondering what the downside is if you split Supers up into separate parts that can be locked and focused on by sub-caps(maybe even cruisers and below). Knowing which part is the weakest point to hit with sub-caps to take one down requires "creativity". Caps can't lock these "parts" and would have to still kill them like they currently do. This would tip all the power into sub-caps. Making Supers a great anti-cap, sov capturing ship that is vulnerable to a sizeable fleet of sub-caps, even when they batphone. I know this idea of some sort has gone around the block more times than the village bicycle but could someone point out the problem with this (apart from perhaps a bit of difficulty changing the code)?

this is buffing blobbers that rely on subcaps

see: recent fight against progodlegend's superfleet

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
oOReikaOo Michiko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-11-14 23:47:03 UTC
Try very hard not to slaughter me here.

But why are u only discussing the super cap when that main post clearly stated titans were out of hand too. Steve has been mass produced...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#74 - 2013-11-14 23:52:09 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Try very hard not to slaughter me here.

But why are u only discussing the super cap when that main post clearly stated titans were out of hand too. Steve has been mass produced...

Titans and supercarriers are both "available" in large numbers.

One or two, maybe even THREE titans per alliance :getin:

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-11-15 00:06:37 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
The Hamilton wrote:
Just wondering what the downside is if you split Supers up into separate parts that can be locked and focused on by sub-caps(maybe even cruisers and below). Knowing which part is the weakest point to hit with sub-caps to take one down requires "creativity". Caps can't lock these "parts" and would have to still kill them like they currently do. This would tip all the power into sub-caps. Making Supers a great anti-cap, sov capturing ship that is vulnerable to a sizeable fleet of sub-caps, even when they batphone. I know this idea of some sort has gone around the block more times than the village bicycle but could someone point out the problem with this (apart from perhaps a bit of difficulty changing the code)?

this is buffing blobbers that rely on subcaps

see: recent fight against progodlegend's superfleet


Could you go into more detail? I'm a crazy wormholer who doesn't see much of the blob these days.
I do understand that more ships means more TiDi and likely node crashes. And the nerf to warp speeds should "help" that. But doing this would help reduce the size of the blob required to take one of these down, no?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#76 - 2013-11-15 00:11:20 UTC
There are alot of ideas on how to balance super caps. one would be adding heavy bombers. tech II ABC ships that use captial torps and use a heavy bombs (large damage but low enough ex velocity that only caps would be hurt)


the other idea would to make RR mods stack

other ideas would be reducing the ehp and cost of supercarriers and make it so they can dock...

not sure what to do about titans...

personally i would remove thier ability to do any kind of damage and just make them mobile stations that can be moved around.

greatly enhance thier logistics ability and such. make the clone bay usefull.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#77 - 2013-11-15 00:16:08 UTC
oOReikaOo Michiko wrote:
Try very hard not to slaughter me here.

But why are u only discussing the super cap when that main post clearly stated titans were out of hand too. Steve has been mass produced...


Titans are alright, even a little useless the way it is now- except the titan is the main way of clearing what is supposed to deal with supercarriers by doomsdaying dreads. The two kinda go hand in hand but the root of the problem is the giant leap in power (EHP and DPS along with repping power) from a capital to a supercapital.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#78 - 2013-11-15 00:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
iskflakes wrote:
, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. .



care to point out when this last happened?

was it that time pl lost 7 titans or was it the time mosus mihi lost 10ish?

totally see how thats an entire fleet of super caps.

we all know PL can hold on long enough untill downtime and then they just wont log back in...

totally see that as balanced.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#79 - 2013-11-15 00:22:55 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. .



care to point out when this last happened?

was it that time pl lost 7 titans or was it the time mosus mihi lost 10ish?

totally see how thats an entire fleet of super caps.

we all know PL can hold on long enough untill downtime and then they just wont log back in...

totally see that as balanced.

You quoted the wrong guy mate.
Darth Kilth
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2013-11-15 00:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Kilth
So Idea I discussed with some corp mates.

Super Carriers right now, when they attain sufficient numbers, can out tank Battleship fleets until server crash or DT and they can out DPS Dreadnaught fleets before they can pose any significant harm.
Their problem is their ability to both tank so much, repair so much and still DPS so much without any real significant drawback.

So what about this.

Super Carriers get the ability to 'switch' between two modes, in one of them, they can sustain a lot of damage, in the other mode they get all their damage bonuses that allows them to kill other caps as quickly.
The result would be fairly obvious, in the defensive mode they can survive the current BS blops incapable of killing them quickly enough, however they wouldn't be able to kill the Dreadnaughts that would be able to kill them in this mode.
While if they go in to their DPS mode they would be able to kill the dreads quick enough, they would also become vulnerable to the subcap groups.

Not to mention certain alliances would actually be forced to bring in their own subcap fleets to support their capital fleets, instead of sending them in with minimal to no support.

It kind of actually reminds me of the current triage on normal carriers but really, something like this could be an idea.