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A Statement About Mining
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1 - 2013-11-14 16:43:14 UTC
Mining your own minerals does not make them free. If you believe that it does, please stop drinking window cleaner.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-11-14 17:06:50 UTC
This is true, but it's somewhat confusing that anyone would want to stop others from undervaluing their economic output instead of just exploiting them.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Ljuvi
#3 - 2013-11-14 17:41:41 UTC
Depends on the player. For some people their time is not worth that much.

Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#4 - 2013-11-14 17:50:23 UTC
When you mine in eve and are very afk about it the ore and minerals might as well be considered free to that player.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5 - 2013-11-14 18:03:00 UTC
was this thread really necessary?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#6 - 2013-11-14 18:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
I have no ISK.

So I mine. I still have no ISK.

I take the ore to a Market.

I now magically have ISK.

You're right, they are not free.

They cost someone some ISK.....and it was not me.

But the ISK is now mine.

So, the minerals may not be 'free' in your alternative universe, but they sure are worth a lot of ISK. To me.

THEY ARE A FREE AND FREELY AVAILABLE RESOURCE WITH A POTENTIAL AND VARIABLE MARKET VALUE.

So, essentially you are making both a true and a false statement at the same time. It's just a paradox, and in direct relation to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem ("This statement is false", et al.)

Roll old tired 10 years dead subjects, are old dead tired 10 years dead subjects

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#7 - 2013-11-14 20:03:30 UTC
It doesn't matter if someone thinks this or not, the market will adapt and won't affect you. There are a hundred other things that affect market prices more than any mimif miner.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#8 - 2013-11-14 20:17:32 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
This is true, but it's somewhat confusing that anyone would want to stop others from undervaluing their economic output instead of just exploiting them.


^this.

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE
Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#9 - 2013-11-14 20:20:45 UTC
Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?

The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#10 - 2013-11-14 20:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?

The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.




So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game.

...or am I misunderstanding something.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#11 - 2013-11-14 20:50:39 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?

The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.




So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game.

...or am I misunderstanding something.


I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding something, as most mining, industry, and production is done by people who already understand the concept of opportunity cost.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#12 - 2013-11-14 20:58:27 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?

The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.




So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game.

...or am I misunderstanding something.


Think of it this way....

You can spend x amount of time mining and earn a certain amount of isk. You could also spend x amount of time mission running and earn a certain amount of isk. In either case you have converted time into isk. Those minerals that you got from your refined ore that you mined were not "free". They cost you time. Time=money, both in EVE and in RL.

The biggest mistake is when folks think they are being profitable by manufacturing a particular item but aren't factoring in the "cost" of the the materials they are mining themselves. That is opportunity cost. The minerals cost them the lost opportunity to be making isk another way.

I'm not suggesting folks not mine, but they need to recognize that the minerals cost them time. As another poster pointed out, how we value that cost will vary from player to player. Someone who afk mines will view that cost as lower/hr than say running missions.

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-11-14 21:03:08 UTC
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
Not to be too harsh, but can people really be so stupid as to not understand the concept of "opportunity cost"?

The OP is correct and more new industrialists should pay attention to this.




So you are saying you are fine with the stoppage of all mining, thus no further ship manufacturing being done, and thus eventually no game.

...or am I misunderstanding something.


Think of it this way....

You can spend x amount of time mining and earn a certain amount of isk. You could also spend x amount of time mission running and earn a certain amount of isk. In either case you have converted time into isk. Those minerals that you got from your refined ore that you mined were not "free". They cost you time. Time=money, both in EVE and in RL.

The biggest mistake is when folks think they are being profitable by manufacturing a particular item but aren't factoring in the "cost" of the the materials they are mining themselves. That is opportunity cost. The minerals cost them the lost opportunity to be making isk another way.

I'm not suggesting folks not mine, but they need to recognize that the minerals cost them time. As another poster pointed out, how we value that cost will vary from player to player. Someone who afk mines will view that cost as lower/hr than say running missions.


Just so you're aware, you're arguing with a well-established MIMAF who firmly believes that usage of the phrase "opportunity cost" is a form of trolling. I would just let him be.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#14 - 2013-11-14 21:09:31 UTC
Jesus, who cares? It doesn't affect you. If someone wants to sell their items at a lower cost, buy their stuff for a profit or ignore them. I don't get this incessant need for people to 'educate' players on what they do in game that will have no effect on them in the long run.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Hyuna Foolery
Tortuga Coalition 102
#15 - 2013-11-14 21:23:33 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
[quote=Krixtal Icefluxor]
I'm not suggesting folks not mine, but they need to recognize that the minerals cost them time. As another poster pointed out, how we value that cost will vary from player to player. Someone who afk mines will view that cost as lower/hr than say running missions.


Just so you're aware, you're arguing with a well-established MIMAF who firmly believes that usage of the phrase "opportunity cost" is a form of trolling. I would just let him be.


MIMAF?
Alberik
Eusebius Corporation
#16 - 2013-11-14 21:31:33 UTC
Hyuna Foolery wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
[quote=Krixtal Icefluxor]
I'm not suggesting folks not mine, but they need to recognize that the minerals cost them time. As another poster pointed out, how we value that cost will vary from player to player. Someone who afk mines will view that cost as lower/hr than say running missions.


Just so you're aware, you're arguing with a well-established MIMAF who firmly believes that usage of the phrase "opportunity cost" is a form of trolling. I would just let him be.


MIMAF?



M inerals I M ine A re F ree

how much is the opportunity cost? if, beeing bill gates or a high class hooker i could earn .. very much more during the time a ore bay fills. or do both at the same time
opportunity cost for mining is very very low for most parts as it doesnt need much attention in comparison to most other professions, even du the very small risk of gankers.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#17 - 2013-11-14 22:51:18 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Jesus, who cares? It doesn't affect you. If someone wants to sell their items at a lower cost, buy their stuff for a profit or ignore them. I don't get this incessant need for people to 'educate' players on what they do in game that will have no effect on them in the long run.


I am afraid 'MIMAF' does affect everyone involved in mining & manufacturing. If enough people are stupid enough to believe it is a logical theory the whole market could fall down the toilet. For example have a look at certain prices at Dodixie (The Gallente trade hub.) Dodixie used to be a good hub to sell at with prices higher than at Hek. In recent times obvious followers of 'MIMAF' have congregated there and prices have turned to ****.
Zircon Dasher
#18 - 2013-11-15 00:50:35 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:

I am afraid 'MIMAF' does affect everyone involved in mining & manufacturing. If enough people are stupid enough to believe it is a logical theory the whole market could fall down the toilet. For example have a look at certain prices at Dodixie (The Gallente trade hub.) Dodixie used to be a good hub to sell at with prices higher than at Hek. In recent times obvious followers of 'MIMAF' have congregated there and prices have turned to ****.


SO what you are saying is that sell prices are down, not because of the increase in supply but, because of MIMAF.......


Please tell me more about this logical theory you believe in.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Sidrat Flush
KarmaFleet
#19 - 2013-11-15 01:00:29 UTC
Meta modules valued and on the market for below their refining value makes me very happy. It's like mining but less annoying and time consuming.

Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#20 - 2013-11-15 01:09:17 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Jesus, who cares? It doesn't affect you. If someone wants to sell their items at a lower cost, buy their stuff for a profit or ignore them. I don't get this incessant need for people to 'educate' players on what they do in game that will have no effect on them in the long run.


I am afraid 'MIMAF' does affect everyone involved in mining & manufacturing. If enough people are stupid enough to believe it is a logical theory the whole market could fall down the toilet. For example have a look at certain prices at Dodixie (The Gallente trade hub.) Dodixie used to be a good hub to sell at with prices higher than at Hek. In recent times obvious followers of 'MIMAF' have congregated there and prices have turned to ****.

Sorry, many other reasons for a market to tank. One being the lack of demand and producers haven't figured out that it's not the hub it once was after agent changes. There are more.

Blaming all the market ills on MIMAF people is easy, but it ignores the massive complexity of the market.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
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