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Hi Sec: Your Future Vision

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#401 - 2013-11-13 16:55:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Casanunda wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Regarding newbies and nullsec. If you guys in the null are so worried about it, then why not do your own outreach programs toward the newbies? Show them the ropes, teach them, point them to right direction and so on. Sure, CCP could have better new player experience, but don't complain if newbies get taught one way by highsec people when you just mull in the null like some bunch of goth kids.
They already do, Goonswarm and TEST are well known for the way they treat their newbies. Their newbies, however, aren't the common or garden newbies found in highsec, they're recruited from their own external communities not the general populace.


Not all of Test and Goons do that. I went to TEST and i'm not a part of any external community, Most people I flew with in TEST were "from" EVE.

I should rephrase that, Goonswarm Federation and Dreddit supposedly recruit mainly from their own external community, other members of their respective alliances recruit from everywhere.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#402 - 2013-11-13 16:56:00 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Not all of Test and Goons do that. I went to TEST and i'm not a part of any external community, Most people I flew with in TEST were "from" EVE.


In addition to alliances geared directly at new players (spaceship samurai, brave newbies) and those that take new players in a less focused fashion (bottom tier alliances, training alliances, etc).


DO NOT say the words Spaceship Samurai to me again. Don't you know they chased my ass all over Querious all night last night? I was just minding my own business doing my exploration and BLAM, dudes in spaceships yelling BANZAI and waving swords at me for 5 systems! Why oh why must they interupt my peaceful space-greed with their dirty dirty "pee-vee-pee"????

I demand CCP action on this matter!
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#403 - 2013-11-13 16:57:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Jenn aSide wrote:


How hilarious to see a guy post rules that he himself keeps breaking?

BTW, you're still missing the point, in spectacular fashion.


I see the error and concede the point.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#404 - 2013-11-13 16:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
High sec players have alt accounts as well and if we are going to assume that low/null sec players have 'parked' alts in high sec then it is equally valid to assume that high sec players have nullsec alts that are 'parked' (i for one have both my exploration alts in nullsec).
No, because at that point they're no longer highseccers in the sense that's being discussed here: the kind of player who would never even consider the option of leaving highsec because [doooooom]. Since these players can obviously do that just fine — in fact, they already have — they are not part of the supposed majority that would rather quit than have to venture outside of high.

Quote:
I will use the generic term nullsec to refer to anyone from w-space, low and null because i find the term non-highsec cumbersome.
Then you should also use the correct numbers for those parts of space. The number you're looking for is 34.7%, not 20%.

That actually leaves only 30.6% highseccers, if we don't do the generous rounding, and even among those, there are plenty of people who are on-board with the ideas exposed by the supposed nullsec cabals that are (equally supposedly) meant to “kill highsec”. So in the end, the self-proclaimed highsec majority that would rather quit than be given incentives to leave highsec is probably only barely into the double digits…

Quote:
You are more than willing to assume that not all highsec players are highsec and yet erroneously assume that all inhabitants of nullsec are true nullsec players.
Nope. I simply assume that anyone who has already left highsec in some fashion is willing to leave highsec in some fashion. If you see any error in this reasoning, it would be interesting to hear.

Quote:
Here are some pointers for you: 1) dont read data and reach erroneous assumptions about that data. 2) don't presume that others have made the same error you have; 3) don't expose your failure so blatantly because it proves how feeble and although researched, the data found is interpreted so badly that your conclusion drawn from that data are unjustified.

Those are good pointers, which is why I followed them… so why didn't you?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#405 - 2013-11-13 17:00:35 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


Two words, niche market. It's easy to be extremely successful while holding a small overall market share, businesses such as bespoke tailors, luxury vehicle manufacturers, yacht makers, etc all remain in business and make sizeable amounts of money despite a very low overall market share. Primarily because they're not aiming at the overall market, they are aiming at a very specific, albeit expensive, subset of that market.

CCP are aiming Eve at a very specific subset of the gaming market, one where players appreciate a game with very few rules and where a nighs dammit completely player driven experience is available if they want to be part of it. Most gamers don't want that, they'd rather play a game where they're the hero, very few games offer the opportunity of being a villain.


You're not getting it. Ferrari is a niche market but if the number of rich people on the planet were to increase from 1 million to 5 million and Ferrari sales increased from 1000 cars per year to 2000 cars per year they have gained actual buyer count but lost market share and market share is a much more robust measure of a corporations strategy than simple looking at whether they have more customers this year than last year.

Now do you get it?


But you could "know" the amount of rich people increased.

Where is your evidence that the kinds of players who would like EVE have increased? The *only* thing you 'know" is that there are more people now than there was yesterday, you don't know whether they are people interested in what EVE has to offer.

You have no solid basis from which to justify your opinion that CCP has somehow "failed" to do anything. If EVE was a "mass appeal" game then you could say that CCPs lack of increasing subs by gamers who like that sort of thing represents a loss in market share. But EVE is niche, so no one really knows.

Stop trying to pass off you assumptions as fact.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2013-11-13 17:01:39 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Regarding newbies and nullsec. If you guys in the null are so worried about it, then why not do your own outreach programs toward the newbies? Show them the ropes, teach them, point them to right direction and so on. Sure, CCP could have better new player experience, but don't complain if newbies get taught one way by highsec people when you just mull in the null like some bunch of goth kids.


You should reread my post prior to this one.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#407 - 2013-11-13 17:02:44 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I should rephrase that, Goonswarm Federation and Dreddit supposedly recruit mainly from their own external community, other members of their respective alliances recruit from everywhere.


Even for goonfed, it's only the main corp that is SA only; there are all manner of other corps where you dont have to be from SA, and the newbie treatment is generally the same.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#408 - 2013-11-13 17:05:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Then you should also use the correct numbers for those parts of space. The number you're looking for is 34.7%, not 20%.

That actually leaves only 30.6% highseccers, if we don't do the generous rounding, and even among those, there are plenty of people who are on-board with the ideas exposed by the supposed nullsec cabals that are (equally supposedly) meant to “kill highsec”. So in the end, the self-proclaimed highsec majority that would rather quit than be given incentives to leave highsec is probably only barely into the double digits…


And this highlights a flaw in my thinking in the past. I always attributed High Sec players inability to do things like elect people to the CSM or fight of the "null sec cartels" to lazyness, unwillingness to cooperate, apathy and such things. I bought into the "high sec majority" myth because of the numbers of characters in high sec and the "vocal" high sec types on these forums.

But what I attributed to things like laziness, I now know I should have attributed to Non-Existence LOL. People that don't exist usually can't vote.....
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#409 - 2013-11-13 17:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Tippia wrote:
No, because at that point they're no longer highseccers in the sense that's being discussed here: the kind of player who would never even consider the option of leaving highsec because [doooooom]. Since these players can obviously do that just fine — in fact, they already have — they are not part of the supposed majority that would rather quit than have to venture outside of high.

Now, youre just being silly by the same token i will state that nullsec players that have high sec alts arent true nullsec players and we get nowhere.

Tippia wrote:
]Then you should also use the correct numbers for those parts of space. The number you're looking for is 34.7%, not 20%.

That actually leaves only 30.6% highseccers, and even among those, there are plenty of people who are on-board with the ideas exposed by the supposed nullsec cabals that are (equally supposedly) meant to “kill highsec”.


I used the number supplied by the other person in this conversation, my bad for using a poorly informed source. I will add I can say just as validly that there are people in nullsec that agree that highsec should be left as it is and again we are just making silly statements that reach no real conclusion.

Tippia wrote:
Nope. I simply assume that anyone who has already left highsec in some fashion is willing to leave highsec in some fashion. If you see any error in this reasoning, it would be interesting to hear.


The counter is I assume that anyone that has left null for high ever is now a highsec player and again this is just silly non-nonsensical argumentation that achieves nothing.

Quote:
Here are some pointers for you: 1) dont read data and reach erroneous assumptions about that data. 2) don't presume that others have made the same error you have; 3) don't expose your failure so blatantly because it proves how feeble and although researched, the data found is interpreted so badly that your conclusion drawn from that data are unjustified.


Tippia wrote:

Those are good pointers, which is why I followed them… so why didn't you?

You didn't follow them at all and that is why i pointed that fact out, denying a truth doesn't make it false.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#410 - 2013-11-13 17:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


Two words, niche market. It's easy to be extremely successful while holding a small overall market share, businesses such as bespoke tailors, luxury vehicle manufacturers, yacht makers, etc all remain in business and make sizeable amounts of money despite a very low overall market share. Primarily because they're not aiming at the overall market, they are aiming at a very specific, albeit expensive, subset of that market.

CCP are aiming Eve at a very specific subset of the gaming market, one where players appreciate a game with very few rules and where a nighs dammit completely player driven experience is available if they want to be part of it. Most gamers don't want that, they'd rather play a game where they're the hero, very few games offer the opportunity of being a villain.


You're not getting it. Ferrari is a niche market but if the number of rich people on the planet were to increase from 1 million to 5 million and Ferrari sales increased from 1000 cars per year to 2000 cars per year they have gained actual buyer count but lost market share and market share is a much more robust measure of a corporations strategy than simple looking at whether they have more customers this year than last year.

Now do you get it?

I get it fine, I'll make it simple for you; Ferrari aren't trying to be Ford.

One produces a high end product with a very limited customer base, who will buy it regardless of cost. They are really big fish in a very small pond. The other produces a mediocre product with a massive customer base, and has considerably more competition for those customers, who generally buy vehicles because of a: the relatively low cost and sometimes b: it's not a GM/Japanese/Korean/European product. Ford are a big fish in a really really big pond.

Therein lies the difference between niche and mass marketing, for CCP to compete in the really large pond of MMOs they'd have to essentially kill what makes their product so successful in the really small pond that they currently compete in.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#411 - 2013-11-13 17:16:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Now, youre just being silly by the same token i will state that nullsec players that have high sec alts arent true nullsec players and we get nowhere.
Then you have to take it up with the “highsec majority” would doesn't see it that way.

Quote:
I will add I can say just as validly that there are people in nullsec that agree that highsec should be left as it is and again we are just making silly statements that reach no real conclusion.
…and you have plenty of examples of this, presumably? Not that it matters. The supposed cartels and majorities are disproved just as well by that assumption as by its opposite. Either way, the idea that a majority wants… well… anything really, is completely without any kind of basis in reality. Its only supporting “evidence” is an incorrectly quoted statistic, interpreted incorrectly, that ignores some very obvious truths about player behaviour.

Quote:
but you didnt follow them at all.
Sure I did. I didn't reach any erroneous assumptions — I simply corrected the data everyone likes to get wrong and showed how it can lead to the exact opposite conclusion than the one they would like to reach from their incorrect data. I don't presume that others have “made the same error” because I haven't made any error, and I also do not presume that others have actually looked at the data and tried to conclude anything reasonable from it, which is why these corrections are needed. And since I didn't fail — blatantly or otherwise — I am more than willing to expose the reasons why the incorrect data does not lead to the unfounded conclusion people often quote.

And the question remains: why didn't you follow these pointers? Was it because you weren't aware of them before I gave them to you?
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#412 - 2013-11-13 17:17:45 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

I get it fine, I'll make it simple for you; Ferrari aren't trying to be Ford.

One produces a high end product with a very limited customer base, who will buy them regardless of cost. They are really big fish in a very small pond. The other produces a mediocre product with a massive customer base, and has considerably more competition for those customers, who generally buy vehicles because a: the relatively low cost and sometimes b: it's not a GM/Japanese/Korean/German product. Ford are a big fish in a really really big pond.

Therein lies the difference between niche and mass marketing, for CCP to compete in the really large pond of MMOs they'd have to essentially kill what makes their product so successful in the really small pond that they currently compete in.


Actually, no you still don't get it and I'm sure at this point you never will.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#413 - 2013-11-13 17:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

I get it fine, I'll make it simple for you; Ferrari aren't trying to be Ford.

One produces a high end product with a very limited customer base, who will buy it regardless of cost. They are really big fish in a very small pond. The other produces a mediocre product with a massive customer base, and has considerably more competition for those customers, who generally buy vehicles because a: the relatively low cost and sometimes b: it's not a GM/Japanese/Korean/European product. Ford are a big fish in a really really big pond.

Therein lies the difference between niche and mass marketing, for CCP to compete in the really large pond of MMOs they'd have to essentially kill what makes their product so successful in the really small pond that they currently compete in.


Actually, no you still don't get it and I'm sure at this point you never will.

Really? Please explain to me how I don't get it, make sure to do it in words of three syllables or less because I'm clearly a frikking moron.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#414 - 2013-11-13 17:26:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Now, youre just being silly by the same token i will state that nullsec players that have high sec alts arent true nullsec players and we get nowhere.
Then you have to take it up with the “highsec majority” would doesn't see it that way.

Quote:
I will add I can say just as validly that there are people in nullsec that agree that highsec should be left as it is and again we are just making silly statements that reach no real conclusion.
…and you have plenty of examples of this, presumably?

Quote:
but you didnt follow them at all.
Sure I did. I didn't reach any erroneous assumptions — I simply corrected the data everyone likes to get wrong and showed how it can lead to the exact opposite conclusion than the one they would like to reach from their incorrect data. I don't presume that others have “made the same error” because I haven't made any error, and I also do not presume that others have actually looked at the data and tried to conclude anything reasonable from it, which is why these corrections are needed. And since I didn't fail — blatantly or otherwise — I am more than willing to expose the reasons why the incorrect data does not lead to the unfounded conclusion people often quote.

And the question remains: why didn't you follow these pointers? Was it because you weren't aware of them before I gave them to you?


You have made an error and reached erroneous assumptions, I have already presented that case and wont do so again. You have 'plenty' of examples of your opinion? I know and you know that you don't.

This conversation has become decidedly devoid of content and now is just silly and useless banter not worth your, mine or the forum reader public's time.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#415 - 2013-11-13 17:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

I get it fine, I'll make it simple for you; Ferrari aren't trying to be Ford.


some people want it to be Ford...or worse, CHEVY. Or at least they think they do, more below:

Quote:

Therein lies the difference between niche and mass marketing, for CCP to compete in the really large pond of MMOs they'd have to essentially kill what makes their product so successful in the really small pond that they currently compete in.


It reminds me of a joke I once heard:

A man and woman are married for 20 years. He's a lying, cheating, philandering jerk the entire time. The things he did with her sister, mother and cousin made the tabloids and got them an invite to the Jerry Springer show.

She nags him to change, threatens to leave but never does, and just puts up with it.

One day he has a car wreck and comes within an inch of his life. He realizes he's been so terribly, terribly wrong to the one good thing in his life, his wife. So after a week he gets out of the hospital, goes home, cooks his wife dinner, gets her flowers, cleans the house, and writes her this incredible love letter apologizing for 2 decades of ass-hattery. They go to bed that night and for the 1st time he makes passionate, non-selfish love to her.

He wakes up the next day and there is a note in the bed where she should be. He opens it and it reads: "Thank you for the letter and the flowers and the dinner, I'm glad you're still alive.....But I'm leaving you, because You're just not the same man I fell in love with.......


That would be EVE changed to appeal to the masses and/or the people always whining about people being mean to them lol. If CCP "themeparked" EVE the complainers would just move on to another sandbox till that got it themeparked too Twisted .
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#416 - 2013-11-13 17:29:47 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

I get it fine, I'll make it simple for you; Ferrari aren't trying to be Ford.

One produces a high end product with a very limited customer base, who will buy them regardless of cost. They are really big fish in a very small pond. The other produces a mediocre product with a massive customer base, and has considerably more competition for those customers, who generally buy vehicles because a: the relatively low cost and sometimes b: it's not a GM/Japanese/Korean/German product. Ford are a big fish in a really really big pond.

Therein lies the difference between niche and mass marketing, for CCP to compete in the really large pond of MMOs they'd have to essentially kill what makes their product so successful in the really small pond that they currently compete in.


Actually, no you still don't get it and I'm sure at this point you never will.

Really? Please explain to me how I don't get it, make sure to do it in words of three syllables or less because I'm clearly a frikking moron.


I cannot. A forum by its very nature isnt a vessel for teaching. I would suggest taking some college courses in economics and business if you are truly interested in understanding my argument.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#417 - 2013-11-13 17:31:32 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

I get it fine, I'll make it simple for you; Ferrari aren't trying to be Ford.

One produces a high end product with a very limited customer base, who will buy them regardless of cost. They are really big fish in a very small pond. The other produces a mediocre product with a massive customer base, and has considerably more competition for those customers, who generally buy vehicles because a: the relatively low cost and sometimes b: it's not a GM/Japanese/Korean/German product. Ford are a big fish in a really really big pond.

Therein lies the difference between niche and mass marketing, for CCP to compete in the really large pond of MMOs they'd have to essentially kill what makes their product so successful in the really small pond that they currently compete in.


Actually, no you still don't get it and I'm sure at this point you never will.

Really? Please explain to me how I don't get it, make sure to do it in words of three syllables or less because I'm clearly a frikking moron.


I cannot. A forum by its very nature isnt a vessel for teaching. I would suggest taking some college courses in economics and business if you are truly interested in understanding my argument.


LOL, some people hide behind CONCORD, others hide behind the supposed limitations of an internet forum.

So, are you in the habit of offering opinions you cannot support because of the limits of the thing you used to offer the opinion?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#418 - 2013-11-13 17:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
You have made an error and reached erroneous assumptions
…and those are, what, exactly?
You've presented arguments that don't counter what I've said or proven my numbers wrong. Instead, you seem to argue against a point I'm not making — most likely because you're so panicked about being proven wrong in your assumptions that you're more focused on lashing out than on figuring out what it is you're lashing out against.

Quote:
You have 'plenty' of examples of your opinion?
What does my opinion have to do with it? Oh, and opinion on what, exactly?

Quote:
This conversation has become decidedly devoid of content
No. It has become decidedly about the actual facts of the matter rather than the myths that the self-proclaimed highsec majority like to brandish to support their case. Just because those facts don't agree with your initial claims doesn't mean they no longer count as content.

If you want to bow out, then that's your prerogative, but it doesn't change the facts.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Really? Please explain to me how I don't get it, make sure to do it in words of three syllables or less because I'm clearly a frikking moron.

You haven't understood that he is the final and ultimate arbiter of exactly where the boundaries of the niche audience and customer potential is. Also, it must be an absolute, rather than a relative measure (but that absolute will not be declared because of… ehm… reasons).
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#419 - 2013-11-13 17:33:41 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:
All I need to go to lo-sec is a nice frigate, but I'd rather not lose my pod, or I would have gone already..


Jump clones could help since you can jump into a pvp clone and keep all your implants safe. Also spamming warp to something before you pop in a fight will make your pod instawarp out. Once you learn that you will lose your pod a lot less Cool
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#420 - 2013-11-13 17:34:44 UTC
Well, I was enjoying the conversation.