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Hi Sec: Your Future Vision

First post
Author
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#381 - 2013-11-13 15:59:20 UTC
Permadeath makes for polite environment, as insults may lead to loss of character.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia

Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#382 - 2013-11-13 16:10:35 UTC
So the cry is, "Get out of hisec and live, but make sure you keep someone back there. It's stupid not to."
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#383 - 2013-11-13 16:16:23 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Permadeath makes for polite environment, as insults may lead to loss of character.


no it doesn't at all, it would just increase the number of alts or decrease the number of risks, making it a stale game, no one would go out and take a risk unless they are 1000% sure that they will not take a scratch, people can get shot at even if they are polite.

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#384 - 2013-11-13 16:18:59 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Permadeath makes for polite environment, as insults may lead to loss of character.


no it doesn't at all, it would just increase the number of alts or decrease the number of risks, making it a stale game, no one would go out and take a risk unless they are 1000% sure that they will not take a scratch, people can get shot at even if they are polite.

In my experience, it does. You might have different experiences, though. And no, I don't consider EVE's skillpoint loss as permadeath.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#385 - 2013-11-13 16:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
As to EVE Flourishing let me introduce you to business 101, to show how wrong you are on that point as well. The number of people world wide playing video games has skyrocketed in the past 10 years but the subs for EVE has only grown at a modest linear growth rate this equates to a net loss of market share.


Pretending that every single new person that has started playing video games over the past ten years is a potential EVE subscriber is a pretty large fallacy, especially if "video games" is taken to mean things like mobile based games and casual browser based games like Farmville.


First, where in my post does it say, hint or elude that 'every single person that has started playing video games over the past ten years is a potential EVE subscriber"?

What I contend is that given a massive increase in the number of people playing video games in the past 10 years that a subset of that gigantic increase should have found EVE to be their game of choice but didn't. That means that in real terms of market share this game has not only not gained but actually lost player base.

If this doesn't make it clear enough for you then i recommend you apply to work for CCP because they don't understand the concept of failing market share either and you would fit right in with their corporate structure.

Two words, niche market. It's easy to be extremely successful while holding a small overall market share, businesses such as bespoke tailors, luxury vehicle manufacturers, yacht makers, etc all remain in business and make sizeable amounts of money despite a very low overall market share. Primarily because they're not aiming at the overall market, they are aiming at a very specific, albeit expensive, subset of that market.

CCP are aiming Eve at a very specific subset of the gaming market, one where players appreciate a game with very few rules and where a nighs dammit completely player driven experience is available if they want to be part of it. Most gamers don't want that, they'd rather play a game where they're the hero, very few games offer the opportunity of being a villain.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#386 - 2013-11-13 16:24:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
Jythier Smith wrote:
So the cry is, "Get out of hisec and live, but make sure you keep someone back there. It's stupid not to."


Pretty much. The problem is that it creates an "arena-like" system, where everyone grinds ISK in the safety of hisec, then roams around for "goodfights" in other areas of space, but an arena only works if people are actually compelled to fight. In Eve, where PvP is open-ended, it just ends up with people wandering around with no compelling reason to ever take a fight they're not 100% sure to win. If you "**** where you eat", so to speak, it incentivizes cooperation and competition, which makes for much more engaging and compelling gameplay.

Once you've gone through some imagined goals you've set for yourself, usually ship-acquisition influenced by the "collect purplz" attitude of most other MMOs, you find that what makes Eve fun and keeps people playing is the interactions with other players. Hisec as it currently stands massively disincentivzes interaction throughout the entire game.

I'll just repeat again that this has zero, nilch, zip, nada, etc to do with new players. We all sympathize with the learning curve of Eve, and the difficult transition to an Eve mindset from people's past experience with MMOs. Personally I think more resources should be put towards the new player experience than anything else, including sovereignty mechanics, nullsec/lowsec gameplay, and security sector gameplay balancing. Identifying themselves with "new players' is a trick that themepark players have long used to attempt to garner sympathy for their misguided views, while they have nothing more in common than anyone else.

Edit: I'll add that most of us would like to see gameplay in hisec that is appropriate for more casual players, but jives with Eve's overall themes, instead of mindless (and comparatively terrible) themepark grinding. I'd love it if people who only have an hour to play a couple times a week could get true "eve-flavoured" action in hisec, and I think the entire game would benefit as a whole.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#387 - 2013-11-13 16:35:40 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:



*yawn* Just the same sort of stuff that I have heard many times before in other games.


Mine is a commentary on weak minded players playing games they are unsuited to, like for example the person who can't play a spaceship viodeo game without hiding behind magical space police.

Many many gamers couldn't handle a hard core game. That's why so many games are "on rails" so to speak, protecting the player from the worst consequences of their own mistakes. Some people want EVE to be like that, and in some cases EVE's high sec is like that. More so now that their are safeties. However did high sec players last 9 years without safties!

Quote:

As for for unforgiveness, well EVE's death system is hardly different from many others I have played. Losing time, skillpoints, et cetera... yeah, those are in many other games.


and exactly who said that these features don't exist elsewhere?

[quote]
Permadeath would be unforgiving and EVE does not have it (can't think of any MMO that does have it, though some NWN servers I played did have permadeath with no resurrection available. THAT's unforgiving).
No permadeath for players, that's true. But permadeath isn't the only "unforgiving" feature out there, and that's not what I'm talking about anyways.

The point of the post I made that you are replying to is that the guys ideas won't work because many gamers are too squishy to like such a thing.
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#388 - 2013-11-13 16:38:22 UTC
As a resident new guy, I guess I approach EVE differently than some do - I refused to sign up until I had been thoroughly indoctrinated into the game by reading everything I could possibly get my hands on about it. If this is a harsh world, I don't want to be caught unaware of anything that will get me killed. Not that I mind being killed, necessarily, but it's an annoyance that I can do without at the moment. Someday I will move on to killing and being killed, I'm sure. Right now I'm working on money, because with money, I can do all that stuff. All I need to go to lo-sec is a nice frigate, but I'd rather not lose my pod, or I would have gone already.

Note, of course, when I say 'lose my pod' I mean the VALUE of my pod, which means paying a ransom for it as well as actually losing it. The pod isn't the thing, it's the paying to replace the implants and clones that will set me back.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#389 - 2013-11-13 16:38:49 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Two words, niche market. It's easy to be extremely successful while holding a small overall market share, businesses such as bespoke tailors, luxury vehicle manufacturers, yacht makers, etc all remain in business and make sizeable amounts of money despite a very low overall market share. Primarily because they're not aiming at the overall market, they are aiming at a very specific, albeit expensive, subset of that market.

CCP are aiming Eve at a very specific subset of the gaming market, one where players appreciate a game with very few rules and where a nighs dammit completely player driven experience is available if they want to be part of it. Most gamers don't want that, they'd rather play a game where they're the hero, very few games offer the opportunity of being a villain.


Damn it Jonah, stop being all reasonable and saying things better than me. It's not nice.
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#390 - 2013-11-13 16:39:48 UTC
Regarding newbies and nullsec. If you guys in the null are so worried about it, then why not do your own outreach programs toward the newbies? Show them the ropes, teach them, point them to right direction and so on. Sure, CCP could have better new player experience, but don't complain if newbies get taught one way by highsec people when you just mull in the null like some bunch of goth kids.

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia

Anomaly One
Doomheim
#391 - 2013-11-13 16:43:00 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Regarding newbies and nullsec. If you guys in the null are so worried about it, then why not do your own outreach programs toward the newbies? Show them the ropes, teach them, point them to right direction and so on. Sure, CCP could have better new player experience, but don't complain if newbies get taught one way by highsec people when you just mull in the null like some bunch of goth kids.


who said they don't?
I got recruited in my early days by PAOR in the newbie channel into their null training group.

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#392 - 2013-11-13 16:43:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…but then, that's not an assumption anyone makes. The assumption is rather that, for every character parked in non-highsec during these censuses, that same player will have an alt parked in highsec as well.


High sec players have alt accounts as well and if we are going to assume that low/null sec players have 'parked' alts in high sec then it is equally valid to assume that high sec players have nullsec alts that are 'parked' (i for one have both my exploration alts in nullsec). Further there are a lot of players in highsec that have 'parked' highsec alts that also dont get counted in these census because they are "parked".

Quote:
Now, 20% in null plus another 20% null-alts in high sec leads to a maximum even with these ridiculously high assumed numbers that only 40% of the game is played by nullsec players and

Tippia wrote:

…then we have 8% in lowsec, plus their highsec alts for another 16%, and finally 6% in w-space plus their highsec alts for a final 12% portion. In total 68%, which leaves 32% played by highsec players.

You mean the point you can only come to if you ignore two thirds of the data points? No, he did not prove that point. So here are a couple of pointers to you: 1) don't skip over most of the data; 2) don't presume that others have made the same error you have; 3) don't expose your failure so blatantly because it proves how feeble and unresearched all your arguments are in the face of actual facts.


I will use the generic term nullsec to refer to anyone from w-space, low and null because i find the term non-highsec cumbersome. You are more than willing to assume that not all highsec players are highsec and yet erroneously assume that all inhabitants of nullsec are true nullsec players.

I have two exploration alts one of which never leaves nullsec and the hauler alt only leaves when my hauling vessel is full and he needs to dump exploration loot to highsec then goes back to nullsec for another load. I am not alone in playing as a highsec player with a nullsec alt, there are pilots of every branch of the game be they weekend pirates, explorers, miners or any of the other professions in this game that although they go to nullsec to play are in fact alts of players that would label themselves as highsec players.

So when you look at nullsec numbers and make the erroneous assumption that all of them can be counted as nullsec players it is just that erroneous.

Here are some pointers for you: 1) dont read data and reach erroneous assumptions about that data. 2) don't presume that others have made the same error you have; 3) don't expose your failure so blatantly because it proves how feeble and although researched, the data found is interpreted so badly that your conclusion drawn from that data are unjustified.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#393 - 2013-11-13 16:44:22 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Regarding newbies and nullsec. If you guys in the null are so worried about it, then why not do your own outreach programs toward the newbies? Show them the ropes, teach them, point them to right direction and so on. Sure, CCP could have better new player experience, but don't complain if newbies get taught one way by highsec people when you just mull in the null like some bunch of goth kids.


You must be new here lol.

Becuase if you weren't you'd know that's what many null, low and wormhole alliances and corporations already do. I was recruited to a null corp from Faction Warfare in 2008. Hell, Goons bring in new players and through the directly at null sec. Many alliances have "academy" corps that recruit out of mission running hubs etc etc etc.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#394 - 2013-11-13 16:44:23 UTC
Jythier Smith wrote:
As a resident new guy, I guess I approach EVE differently than some do - I refused to sign up until I had been thoroughly indoctrinated into the game by reading everything I could possibly get my hands on about it. If this is a harsh world, I don't want to be caught unaware of anything that will get me killed. Not that I mind being killed, necessarily, but it's an annoyance that I can do without at the moment. Someday I will move on to killing and being killed, I'm sure. Right now I'm working on money, because with money, I can do all that stuff. All I need to go to lo-sec is a nice frigate, but I'd rather not lose my pod, or I would have gone already.

Note, of course, when I say 'lose my pod' I mean the VALUE of my pod, which means paying a ransom for it as well as actually losing it. The pod isn't the thing, it's the paying to replace the implants and clones that will set me back.


I don't think anyone is going to tell you you're wrong exactly, but this is a pretty common belief that new players have that often gets proved very wrong through later experience.

Progress as you like, perhaps it's a lesson we all need to learn on our own, but I"m confident that the vast majority of vets will agree that actual player experience trumps any in-game advantage like sp or isk, plus it's far more fun and engaging.

If you're not a dive head first kind of person, then that's fine, but it really is the best way to play eve for the vast majority of people who end up sticking around; and the sooner you dive, the better.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Casanunda
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2013-11-13 16:45:37 UTC
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Regarding newbies and nullsec. If you guys in the null are so worried about it, then why not do your own outreach programs toward the newbies? Show them the ropes, teach them, point them to right direction and so on. Sure, CCP could have better new player experience, but don't complain if newbies get taught one way by highsec people when you just mull in the null like some bunch of goth kids.
They already do, Goonswarm and TEST are well known for the way they treat their newbies. Their newbies, however, aren't the common or garden newbies found in highsec, they're recruited from their own external communities not the general populace.

The fact that I am not a gazillionaire Gallente aristocrat with the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino is a constant niggle.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#396 - 2013-11-13 16:47:11 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…but then, that's not an assumption anyone makes. The assumption is rather that, for every character parked in non-highsec during these censuses, that same player will have an alt parked in highsec as well.


High sec players have alt accounts as well and if we are going to assume that low/null sec players have 'parked' alts in high sec then it is equally valid to assume that high sec players have nullsec alts that are 'parked' (i for one have both my exploration alts in nullsec). Further there are a lot of players in highsec that have 'parked' highsec alts that also dont get counted in these census because they are "parked".

Quote:
Now, 20% in null plus another 20% null-alts in high sec leads to a maximum even with these ridiculously high assumed numbers that only 40% of the game is played by nullsec players and

Tippia wrote:

…then we have 8% in lowsec, plus their highsec alts for another 16%, and finally 6% in w-space plus their highsec alts for a final 12% portion. In total 68%, which leaves 32% played by highsec players.

You mean the point you can only come to if you ignore two thirds of the data points? No, he did not prove that point. So here are a couple of pointers to you: 1) don't skip over most of the data; 2) don't presume that others have made the same error you have; 3) don't expose your failure so blatantly because it proves how feeble and unresearched all your arguments are in the face of actual facts.


I will use the generic term nullsec to refer to anyone from w-space, low and null because i find the term non-highsec cumbersome. You are more than willing to assume that not all highsec players are highsec and yet erroneously assume that all inhabitants of nullsec are true nullsec players.

I have two exploration alts one of which never leaves nullsec and the hauler alt only leaves when my hauling vessel is full and he needs to dump exploration loot to highsec then goes back to nullsec for another load. I am not alone in playing as a highsec player with a nullsec alt, there are pilots of every branch of the game be they weekend pirates, explorers, miners or any of the other professions in this game that although they go to nullsec to play are in fact alts of players that would label themselves as highsec players.

So when you look at nullsec numbers and make the erroneous assumption that all of them can be counted as nullsec players it is just that erroneous.

Here are some pointers for you: 1) dont read data and reach erroneous assumptions about that data. 2) don't presume that others have made the same error you have; 3) don't expose your failure so blatantly because it proves how feeble and although researched, the data found is interpreted so badly that your conclusion drawn from that data are unjustified
.


How hilarious to see a guy post rules that he himself keeps breaking?

BTW, you're still missing the point, in spectacular fashion.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#397 - 2013-11-13 16:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Regarding newbies and nullsec. If you guys in the null are so worried about it, then why not do your own outreach programs toward the newbies? Show them the ropes, teach them, point them to right direction and so on. Sure, CCP could have better new player experience, but don't complain if newbies get taught one way by highsec people when you just mull in the null like some bunch of goth kids.


You must be new here lol.

Becuase if you weren't you'd know that's what many null, low and wormhole alliances and corporations already do. I was recruited to a null corp from Faction Warfare in 2008. Hell, Goons bring in new players and through the directly at null sec. Many alliances have "academy" corps that recruit out of mission running hubs etc etc etc.


What she said. As someone who designed a nullsec corp specifically around allowing new and casual players access to the full breadth of the nullsec experience, a corp that is still going strong with 325 members and 7 corp fleet commanders, I am intimately involved with the new AND casual player experience.

And my corp is just a drop in the bucket compared to what some people do for new players, in terms of both numbers and degree of "newness".

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#398 - 2013-11-13 16:48:40 UTC
Casanunda wrote:
Anna Karhunen wrote:
Regarding newbies and nullsec. If you guys in the null are so worried about it, then why not do your own outreach programs toward the newbies? Show them the ropes, teach them, point them to right direction and so on. Sure, CCP could have better new player experience, but don't complain if newbies get taught one way by highsec people when you just mull in the null like some bunch of goth kids.
They already do, Goonswarm and TEST are well known for the way they treat their newbies. Their newbies, however, aren't the common or garden newbies found in highsec, they're recruited from their own external communities not the general populace.


Not all of Test and Goons do that. I went to TEST and i'm not a part of any external community, Most people I flew with in TEST were "from" EVE.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#399 - 2013-11-13 16:50:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Not all of Test and Goons do that. I went to TEST and i'm not a part of any external community, Most people I flew with in TEST were "from" EVE.


In addition to alliances geared directly at new players (spaceship samurai, brave newbies) and those that take new players in a less focused fashion (bottom tier alliances, training alliances, etc).

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#400 - 2013-11-13 16:54:47 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


Two words, niche market. It's easy to be extremely successful while holding a small overall market share, businesses such as bespoke tailors, luxury vehicle manufacturers, yacht makers, etc all remain in business and make sizeable amounts of money despite a very low overall market share. Primarily because they're not aiming at the overall market, they are aiming at a very specific, albeit expensive, subset of that market.

CCP are aiming Eve at a very specific subset of the gaming market, one where players appreciate a game with very few rules and where a nighs dammit completely player driven experience is available if they want to be part of it. Most gamers don't want that, they'd rather play a game where they're the hero, very few games offer the opportunity of being a villain.


You're not getting it. Ferrari is a niche market but if the number of rich people on the planet were to increase from 1 million to 5 million and Ferrari sales increased from 1000 cars per year to 2000 cars per year they have gained actual buyer count but lost market share and market share is a much more robust measure of a corporations strategy than simple looking at whether they have more customers this year than last year.

Now do you get it?

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.