Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I tend to think a 5% damage nerf for light missiles combined with increased power grid needs for RLMLs was the way to go if they actually wanted to balance them. The thing is that this doesn't really feel like a change being made for the sake of balance so much as a change being made because Rise thinks the idea is cool.

Yes you missed the many constructive alternatives that were given by players such as: create an alternate weapon system that uses burst mode and leave the current RLML as they are in the game, create a special type of ammo that would be called swarm and have burst fire mode + long reload times, adjust the ridiclusly long reload time to 20 or 30 seconds and also adjust the damage/ROF of the missiles accordingly, and many more others.
You also missed the fact that many players stated the RLML is not OP is just well balanced as it does actually have less dps than HML/HAML systems and is used by many people because there actually is no other practical alternative to apply good damage to small ships(HML and HAML suck at this after latest nerfs).
Imo, instead of taking that alternative away from solo players, thus leaving them with 0 choices in this type of engagements, wouldn't it be smart for CCP to create a separate set of Swarm fire type of launchers and leave the current RLML and V1 RHML as they were initially implemented.
This will offer players more choices instead of taking the only one good there is at this moment in the game, away, by stubbornly calling it OP when is nothing else that this: the ONLY choice for that purpose.
Also those new Swarm missile launchers would be able to serve very well fleet blobs and large gang warfare and will not interfere with the current fits that people invested so much time training for.

Sorry I don't fear no change as long as it's well thought and balanced and this sadly is not. Actually I would have welcomed this concept of burst launchers if it's mechanics would have been thoroughly tested, and based on anything else than impossible reload times and short ammo clips.

So :
- constructive alternative (as in "please don't touch my RLML, I need them as OP as they are now") ;
- RLML are fine (as in "please let me have one medium launcher better than all the others") ;
- no alternative : nothing justify to keep something OP, not even the lack of alternative, but I thought it was obvious ;

And finaly, these burst RLML are not good for blob but for guerilla warfare and hit and run tactics, something very few here seems knowing anything about.

I'm not denying you flying skills, but for most of us poor mortals, reducing transversal for medium LR weapons to track *perfectly* their target is not something as trivial as hiting F1 for your missiles to kill it. Otherwise pulse laser are the only short range weapon to have this kind of range and they don't do more damage than HAM at these ranges.

I also see that you like to smartly pick all the special cases which can support your views : perfect tracking scenario for turrets ; the most resilient frigates to talk about RLML. I'm not saying these cases don't exist, just that they are not the norm.

So what you expected? For me to dumbly pick the most horrible scenarios to support my view? That is not how argumentation works, at least not outside the something awful forums.

Actually, if you want anybody other than those that already agree with you to pay attention, you'd do exactly that. Provide data based on a typical scenario, and if you really want to present a convincing argument put up a worst case scenario to your argument.

If you have to rely only on an "ideal" situation to support your argument, it's not much of an argument and will receive little comment.

RLMLs aren't OP. What is actually wrong with you? A RLML Cerb with 2x BCUs, faction ammo, and all V's does a heady 291 dps, max. UNDER THREE HUNDRED DPS! Meanwhile, a HAM Cerb with the same setup does a theoretical ~530 DPS with faction HAMs, but hits a Vagabond for a mere 194 of that, while hitting to half the range of the rapid light launcher. Heavies do a trivial 140 dps to the Vagabond while having tons of range.

Damage application on HAMs is so pathetic that they're only useful for shooting plus-sized targets (BCs and bigger), even when using faction ammo, and even that represents your best-case scenario for shooting "small" targets (shooting at plus-sized targets is supposed to be rage ammo's niche, not a default for the weapon system). The problem isn't that RLMLs are OP, it's that the closerange cruiser missiles are utterly worthless.

HAMs are useless for PvP because you can't sac a bunch of midslots on a shield-tank oriented PvP ship in order to fit the webs / target painters you need to apply damage. Combine this with the fact that PvP often involves having to peel small targets off your gang and you should see why suggesting that people use HAMs makes you look ridiculous.

There is a solution to this missile problem: trim a tiny bit of DPS off of RLMLs by reducing their rate of fire. 5-10% would do it. Then change the mechanics of heavies and HAMs to actually fit with the rest of the game: give the closerange weapon better damage output AND better damage application than the long-range system. HAMs should apply the majority of their raw DPS to cruiser-sized targets. Significant falloff should start with smaller targets, and rage missiles should actually fill the role of doing massive damage to battlecruiser-sized targets and up.

If RLMLs actually only did higher DPS than HAMs or heavies when used against destroyers and smaller, players would actually face a meaningful fitting decision when deciding whether or not to fit RLMLs. The actual applied DPS from RLMLs isn't fantastic: there's only a couple of ships in the game that can sqeeze enough DPS from RLMLs to make them a viable choice, and really it's just the Tengu that manages to reach a number that you could consider "OP." It's the uselessness of HAMs that makes using RLMLs a non-decision, because they can't do anywhere near their proper damage to anything smaller than a Drake.

So yeah, the notion is that Rise should actually accomplish something useful by properly differentiating missiles rather than subjecting us to a choice between three gimmick launchers that aren't generally useful (with the gimmicks being ridiculous one-shot burst damage to literally any ship in EVE, then dying in a fire; a high DPS launcher that's useless against at least 3/4 of the ships you'll encounter in PvP; and a launcher that gives you tons of range but nothing else).

If you read what CCP Rise has stated so far. He says that this was an issue mainly surrounding the new "Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher" module. They, CCP, came to the conclusion that the "Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher" may obsolete a near used less weapon system (cruise missiles and cruise missile launcher). He seems to suggest that they came to this conclusion based on feedback from this forum, external and then internal sources. Not to mention some entities open statements that they intend to abuse (by abuse I mean use the module A LOT) this mechanic.

Now. CCP's issue and problem had NOTHING to do with light missiles or Rapid Light Missile Launchers.

Moving away from CCP for a second.

I've been hearing from time to time by players I fly with and those I do not. What were suggestive statement from time to time with no firm conclusion. However, overtime their conclusion became firm and directed towards any platform utilising light missiles. However, when you ask them to give more detail. Why is this bad or too powerful. The answer was ALWAYS "just nerf them".

Note: in this game as in real life perception can become reality. Irrespective of facts and or truth. So when I hear about a module, ship or race being perceived as powerful. You either confront it with facts and win the argument out right. There by convincing the other person that their conclusion is wrong or it turns into a needless NERF. Heavy missiles and Hurricane were recent victims of this phenomenon. No one cares about the real causes, just perceived cause. So the perceived cause gets strung up and murdered v0v

So, it is clear that the player base was starting to favour weapon systems using light missiles and when used with electronic warfare modules like tracking disruptors and remote sensor dampeners and ships providing warfare link bonuses off grid. A negative perception was starting to forum around light missiles, light missile launchers and rapid light missile launchers. There are PLENTY of pilots who want to see them NERFED.

Back to CCP and CCP Rise.

So, CCP had no intention of doing anything to light missiles, light missile launchers and or rapid light missiles. After all I firmly believe they saw no issues surrounding Rapid light missile launcher. However, after coming to the conclusion surrounding Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers and Heavy missile possibly overshadowing Cruise missiles. They just noticed the obvious with regard to Rapid light missile launchers and heavy missiles launchers. Read from the forums, external, internal sources and saw light missiles > heavy missiles. Came up with a way for RHML not to be abused. Thought you could not do to one weapon system and not to the one it was BASED OFF OF and here we are.

That last part was my TINFOIL hat explanation of how this all came about.

So heres a bit of a comparison: Imagine you have an omen and a new rlm caracal shooting a target for 50 seconds. They end up doing relatively the same dps.

Now for the next 40 seconds, the caracal does 0 dps while the omen continues doing damage. Rlms currently have the 'interesting decision making' of "hmm, x, y, and z are on the field, what is the best ammo type to use here?'. Don't believe me? Shoot a jaguar with mjolnir fury, or try doing much damage to some afs and intys without swapping to percision ammo. The new rlms would have to wait 40 seconds in order to do this, which is long enough that you might as well leave the field because youll be chased off anyway. This means the only decision making in using new rlms will be 'can I kill the tackle in under 50 seconds assuming I have the right ammo preloaded to do so?' That is not an interesting choice to me.

If the fight lasts longer than 50 seconds, the omen becomes better and the caracal has a random chance of becoming useless or having to leave because suddenly something lands and you cant just reload to the right damage or missile type to kill it. In a small gang situation the new rlm caracal wouldn't want to shoot the primary, it would be too busy reloading incase the tackle that it just killed feels like reshipping. The omen and thorax are able to apply damage to a target regardless of how much ammo they have used and what point of the fight they are at.

I would much prefer a rof nerf and a pg requirement increase as a nerf to rlms. That way I still am able to make decisions about what ammo to use to get the best effect, and with an rlm nerf I would need to make the right ammo choice to be able to kill a number of things at all. Please reconsider this change, there are better ways of nerfing rlm than preventing people from reloading fast enough that missile type is actually a choice you can make during a fight and not something you have to hope you got right when you started engaging.

Also, I totally just realized something: with the mobile depot taking 45 seconds to anchor...

Start with RLMLs fitted, with whatever general-purpose ammo you want. As soon as the fight starts, drop and anchor a mobile depot. 45 seconds later, it will be usable. 5 seconds after that, you'll be out of ammo on your RLMLs.

Then, if the fight's going to take longer than another 90 seconds, swap the RLMLs for something else! LMLs if you need to keep killing frigates, HAMs or HMLs against cruisers and bigger. Should take ~10seconds to switch, then a 10 second reload, and keep shooting with higher sustained dps!

I now fully support this change.