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[Rubicon] Ghost Sites & Ascendancy Implant Set

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Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#301 - 2013-11-09 19:02:36 UTC
I know that these are not the final stats, but here is my experience with them so far.

I tried to run them in the Stratos, thinking that new exploration cruiser and new exploration sites must go hand in hand right? Well, so far every single time I have tried to run one in 0.0 I hack the fist can, grab loot, turn to second can, NPCs pop on screen, lock scam NPC, pop goes my ship. Hell the last time I didn't even have time to lock the NPCs or even maneuver before they shot the container and blew up my cruiser.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#302 - 2013-11-09 19:42:57 UTC
Saw the interceptor in use with the implants here. Really not so sure this is a good idea. If they're not very expensive, they're going to be very difficult to counter. 5-6 seconds across a system at 24 au/s makes intel a lot harder too. Systems close to a neutral or enemy border are going to be unworkable.
Megarom
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#303 - 2013-11-09 22:15:26 UTC
I went in to my testing session with the plan that I need to hack fast and warp out as soon as the red crosses appear. I have perfect hacking skill, used Astero with a relevant rig and T2 analyzer so that was totally overkill for the Lesser and Standard sites.

One thing I learned the hard way was that once you commit to hacking a new can you either finish in time to warp out or you die. If you try to warp out while the hacking is ongoing it will fail and the explosion will kill you. This happened to me in the first Improved site I did. Combat log said the damage to my ship was 2900+ while I had more than 5000 ehp with DC running so I'm bit confused how the damage application works here unless the logged number is after resistances.

I'm sure balancing the difficulty vs. loot vs. rarity of the sites is going to be really hard because there is no way to determine how high players will value the new implants and high end mobile structures.
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#304 - 2013-11-09 23:39:06 UTC
do the ones on SISI have loot? I have finished 4 lesser level sites and the cans are always empty.

Also im open to the idea im just bad, but the Superior level sites seem impossible. lvl 5 skills, t2 rigs, t2 modules lvl 5 and 11 sites later i haven't gotten any further than 1 successful can, and it was empty at that.

Event Organizer of EVE North East
Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#305 - 2013-11-10 14:58:54 UTC
Megarom wrote:
I went in to my testing session with the plan that I need to hack fast and warp out as soon as the red crosses appear. I have perfect hacking skill, used Astero with a relevant rig and T2 analyzer so that was totally overkill for the Lesser and Standard sites.

One thing I learned the hard way was that once you commit to hacking a new can you either finish in time to warp out or you die. If you try to warp out while the hacking is ongoing it will fail and the explosion will kill you. This happened to me in the first Improved site I did. Combat log said the damage to my ship was 2900+ while I had more than 5000 ehp with DC running so I'm bit confused how the damage application works here unless the logged number is after resistances.

I'm sure balancing the difficulty vs. loot vs. rarity of the sites is going to be really hard because there is no way to determine how high players will value the new implants and high end mobile structures.




EHP takes in to account sustained damage (DPS) and not volly damage. most frigates have an average (when fitted) if 1500, 3000 raw HP, the cans currently do a base damage of 2800 (before sig radious) and have an explosion range of 10km.

best plan for these sites if they are released in this state (is assume things will be changed) then:

warp to site
cargo scan all cans
hack the 2 with best loot
???
profit
Saeka Tyr
Sanctuary of Shadows
#306 - 2013-11-10 20:40:32 UTC
These need some serious de-tuning.

In a startios with level 4 hacking skills, I should have a decent shot at the loot.

Twice in a row:

* Fail on first container, go to 2/3 armor.

* Success on next container.

* Timer runs out midway through the third, and the simultaneous explosions kill me.

This is with halo implants and 70% resists across the board on a stratios.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#307 - 2013-11-10 22:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Dark Drifter wrote:
can explosions seem to be:

omni damage profile
have a base damage profile of 2800 across all site brackets


EDIT: Hmm... now I'm not sure what this guy is saying. Current mechanics on Sisi seem to be the flat 9000 explosive damage per can as originally stated by Affinity. At least in the lesser sites. Explosive resists work as expected.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#308 - 2013-11-11 00:51:52 UTC
Megarom wrote:
Combat log said the damage to my ship was 2900+ while I had more than 5000 ehp with DC running so I'm bit confused how the damage application works here unless the logged number is after resistances.


The combat log (and kill mails) show the real HP loss caused to your ship, NOT the potential full dmg that might have been applied by the hit. If your ship is destroyed the value shown will be the total HP your ship had remaining. If your frigate has 2900 HP and is popped by a 9000 dmg blast, the combat log and kill mails will show 2900. If you get hit with 10000 explosive damage and have 80% exp resists, the combat log shows the 2000 of actual HP you lose, not the 10000 potential incoming.
Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#309 - 2013-11-11 11:48:34 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Dark Drifter wrote:
can explosions seem to be:

omni damage profile
have a base damage profile of 2800 across all site brackets


EDIT: Hmm... now I'm not sure what this guy is saying. Current mechanics on Sisi seem to be the flat 9000 explosive damage per can as originally stated by Affinity. At least in the lesser sites. Explosive resists work as expected.


its about 9k total damage not per can.

tested it extensively in every site, multiple times
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#310 - 2013-11-11 16:52:55 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:
Dark Drifter wrote:
can explosions seem to be:

omni damage profile
have a base damage profile of 2800 across all site brackets


EDIT: Hmm... now I'm not sure what this guy is saying. Current mechanics on Sisi seem to be the flat 9000 explosive damage per can as originally stated by Affinity. At least in the lesser sites. Explosive resists work as expected.


its about 9k total damage not per can.

tested it extensively in every site, multiple times


Maybe when the whole site pops it behaves differently? (EDIT: Which is to say, I haven't tested that at all).

Regardless, if you fail a hack on a single can, that single can exploding is definitely a fixed 9000 explosive damage.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2013-11-11 17:28:09 UTC
Something else interesting is that arriving at a site while cloaked does not seem to start the timer (or else sets the timer to some very large value). Been sitting cloaked at this site for 30 minutes now with no NPC spawn. Not that I'm complaining, seems like a fun way to set traps :) Just not something I expected from the original description of timer behaviors.
Tora Hamaji
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#312 - 2013-11-12 12:12:37 UTC
So I ran about 10 ghost sites so far, from lesser to superior (5 of those). and here is my feedback:


1- these sites are complete garbage, literally, 2 cans are empty (or have 10x random mineral), a can will have 1x scrap metal, and the last can may or may not contain something, 5/10 times it was empty.

2- the risk vs reward is absolute garbage. the sites have very high risk with explosions and web/scrams, but the reward is most of the time garbage.

3- the rarity of these sites combined with the random and often low value of contents is not justifiable.

4- ghost sites are very rare, making their content expensive, having a low drop rate on a rare site will make stuff way too expensive. the game might not have a single full ascendancy implant set for months!

5- ascendancy implants are going to be ridiculously expensive. PVPers wont use them because of that, and the only PVErs who could need them are a niche of freighter pilots, and then again half of those afk pilot so they don't care about warp speed.

6- The above applies to the meta mobile depots.

are an interesting idea, but these implants are only a perk. their rarity will make them very expensive, which means pvp players are never going to buy them, and the advantage in warp speed is not big enough to encourage anyone to spend billions just to warp faster.

my suggestions to salvage this disaster:

1- make a GUARANTEED valuable loot in EVERY container, so that players have to make a decision which ones to hack and which to leave, since most of the time rats will spawn on the 2nd hack, OR bring a friend and encourage teamwork.

2- make ascendancy implants CHEAP, to encourage both pvpers and pvers to spend their isk on them.
3- make the meta mobile depots affordable.

The two points above can be remedied by a simple solution:
- make each site have 100% drop rate for 1 implant bpc, and 1 depot bpc
- make each bpc have 20 runs

the two suggestions above won't make the contents cheap because ghost sites are still very rare, and rats still destroy cans.

4- let the sites have random relevant faction content from the highest data sites. so a serpentis ghost site should have a percentage to drop every item that normally drops from serpentis data sites, such as faction tower bpcs and implants. maybe even a few faction mods as well.
Quiby San
#313 - 2013-11-12 14:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Quiby San
Tora Hamaji wrote:
So I ran about 10 ghost sites so far, from lesser to superior (5 of those). and here is my feedback:


1- these sites are complete garbage, literally, 2 cans are empty (or have 10x random mineral), a can will have 1x scrap metal, and the last can may or may not contain something, 5/10 times it was empty.

2- the risk vs reward is absolute garbage. the sites have very high risk with explosions and web/scrams, but the reward is most of the time garbage.

3- the rarity of these sites combined with the random and often low value of contents is not justifiable.

4- ghost sites are very rare, making their content expensive, having a low drop rate on a rare site will make stuff way too expensive. the game might not have a single full ascendancy implant set for months!

5- ascendancy implants are going to be ridiculously expensive. PVPers wont use them because of that, and the only PVErs who could need them are a niche of freighter pilots, and then again half of those afk pilot so they don't care about warp speed.

6- The above applies to the meta mobile depots.

are an interesting idea, but these implants are only a perk. their rarity will make them very expensive, which means pvp players are never going to buy them, and the advantage in warp speed is not big enough to encourage anyone to spend billions just to warp faster.

my suggestions to salvage this disaster:

1- make a GUARANTEED valuable loot in EVERY container, so that players have to make a decision which ones to hack and which to leave, since most of the time rats will spawn on the 2nd hack, OR bring a friend and encourage teamwork.

2- make ascendancy implants CHEAP, to encourage both pvpers and pvers to spend their isk on them.
3- make the meta mobile depots affordable.

The two points above can be remedied by a simple solution:
- make each site have 100% drop rate for 1 implant bpc, and 1 depot bpc
- make each bpc have 20 runs

the two suggestions above won't make the contents cheap because ghost sites are still very rare, and rats still destroy cans.

4- let the sites have random relevant faction content from the highest data sites. so a serpentis ghost site should have a percentage to drop every item that normally drops from serpentis data sites, such as faction tower bpcs and implants. maybe even a few faction mods as well.


First, you do realize that almost all of your numbered points just hint toward the fact that you are not happy with the test loot on the test server in comparison to the game mechanics that are being tested and scaled right now.

Second, it is rude to call a system you are not happy with all kind of names to insult the creator for something you obviously did not understand fully yet in a childish attempt to gather attention.

These sites are seeded to test the game mechanics you encounter while running the sites, not to provide you with a rich and satisfying loot table. This is by far the last thing you will have to worry about, since it has absolutely no testing purpose whether you hack an empty can or a can filled with hundreds of blueprints.
These tests are not about the loot and the creators stated, that the cans will have all kinds of loot in the final version, including some of those more valuable blueprints and one of the materials you will need to manufacture the new implants.
Please read up on this in the thread.

This also nullifies all your risk/reward/rarity concerns since you have no values at hand right now to solve this calculation.
You also seem to already have an inside knowledge on who will or will not use the new implant set when you base your statements on this.

The difficulty right now is pretty fine (as of the 12th November 2013).
If you fly a frigate into superior sites, do not expect to be able to fail more than one can.
Please bring a properly resisted ship like a T3 cruiser, nullified and stabbed to be able to get off a drop on you.
The spawn only stays for 1-2 minutes, scrambling you until the cans explode. After that they leave.
A t3 ship easily tanks all 4 cans and the 2 minutes spawn. Pods are being ignored, so in the worst case you would only lose weaker ships. That is the life in EvE, I see no need to lower the risk. You bring better ships, you survive without any risk. You bring a weak ship, you might lose and easily replace it.

Since you will probably not be able to hack 3 cans in a superior site by yourself in a fashion time, bring a cargo scanner to check the cans beforehand and decide what you want to hack in the little time you have to avoid sad faces when you get surprised by a lower loot drop.
Be aware though, that this is all subject to change in future updates on the test server.

The market will regulate itself with supply and demand. I for one look forward to get me one or two full sets and will be trying to discover and produce most of them with friends or myself.

Tl;dr:
Please stop being rude, inform yourself properly before you make accusations/offer ideas what should be changed, please have a nice day.

English is not my native, so please excuse any typos you might have encountered while reading this.
Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#314 - 2013-11-12 17:47:28 UTC
Tora Hamaji wrote:
So I ran about 10 ghost sites so far, from lesser to superior (5 of those). and here is my feedback:


1- these sites are complete garbage, literally, 2 cans are empty (or have 10x random mineral), a can will have 1x scrap metal, and the last can may or may not contain something, 5/10 times it was empty.

2- the risk vs reward is absolute garbage. the sites have very high risk with explosions and web/scrams, but the reward is most of the time garbage.

3- the rarity of these sites combined with the random and often low value of contents is not justifiable.

4- ghost sites are very rare, making their content expensive, having a low drop rate on a rare site will make stuff way too expensive. the game might not have a single full ascendancy implant set for months!

5- ascendancy implants are going to be ridiculously expensive. PVPers wont use them because of that, and the only PVErs who could need them are a niche of freighter pilots, and then again half of those afk pilot so they don't care about warp speed.

6- The above applies to the meta mobile depots.

are an interesting idea, but these implants are only a perk. their rarity will make them very expensive, which means pvp players are never going to buy them, and the advantage in warp speed is not big enough to encourage anyone to spend billions just to warp faster.

my suggestions to salvage this disaster:

1- make a GUARANTEED valuable loot in EVERY container, so that players have to make a decision which ones to hack and which to leave, since most of the time rats will spawn on the 2nd hack, OR bring a friend and encourage teamwork.

2- make ascendancy implants CHEAP, to encourage both pvpers and pvers to spend their isk on them.
3- make the meta mobile depots affordable.

The two points above can be remedied by a simple solution:
- make each site have 100% drop rate for 1 implant bpc, and 1 depot bpc
- make each bpc have 20 runs

the two suggestions above won't make the contents cheap because ghost sites are still very rare, and rats still destroy cans.

4- let the sites have random relevant faction content from the highest data sites. so a serpentis ghost site should have a percentage to drop every item that normally drops from serpentis data sites, such as faction tower bpcs and implants. maybe even a few faction mods as well.


pretty much what quiby said...

secondly if you bothered to read the whole forum post they would have need duly informed that 70% of the loot table is currently not seeded on sisi. there are a few bits that have made it in, like the named deployable structures.


Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#315 - 2013-11-12 18:35:34 UTC
Tora Hamaji wrote:
1- make a GUARANTEED valuable loot in EVERY container, so that players have to make a decision which ones to hack and which to leave, since most of the time rats will spawn on the 2nd hack, OR bring a friend and encourage teamwork.


In addition to what others have said about the loot tables on sisi not being finalized, I just wanted to address this point in particular.

I would certainly support the idea that perhaps every site should have at least one "valuable" item (depending on overall rarity of the sites), but NOT every container. Fitting a cargo scanner to determine which can has the good loot is a significant fitting tradeoff for at least some of the ships I've played with for these sites. Do I give up a scram, or a dual-prop, or a shield mod for that cargo scanner? Or do I not bother with the scanner and just take my chances that I can hack three or all four of the cans?

It also gives an edge to those who have specifically researched the mechanics of and fit ships for these sites vs. those who just accidentally wander into one and hack a can at random.
CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#316 - 2013-11-13 13:51:59 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Something else interesting is that arriving at a site while cloaked does not seem to start the timer (or else sets the timer to some very large value). Been sitting cloaked at this site for 30 minutes now with no NPC spawn. Not that I'm complaining, seems like a fun way to set traps :) Just not something I expected from the original description of timer behaviors.



Yup, this is by design. :)

It would be an issue if you uncloaked and the site timer didn't initiate.
However, in-house tests are showing us that the timer starts when you uncloak. Big smile

Team Genesis
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#317 - 2013-11-13 14:41:28 UTC
A new patch is now on Singularity and unfortunately most AoE damage events are disabled in this build. They will be back with the next patch tomorrow, but with better balanced numbers.

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing
Koban Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#318 - 2013-11-13 14:46:19 UTC
CCP Habakuk wrote:
A new patch is now on Singularity and unfortunately most AoE damage events are disabled in this build. They will be back with the next patch tomorrow, but with better balanced numbers.

Can you say how long the new sites will be fixed (always spawing) in one of the systems ? (so we may quickly check them, instead of wasting time to find them).

Could you also please remind in which system where they fixed ?

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#319 - 2013-11-13 15:34:01 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:
Something else interesting is that arriving at a site while cloaked does not seem to start the timer (or else sets the timer to some very large value). Been sitting cloaked at this site for 30 minutes now with no NPC spawn. Not that I'm complaining, seems like a fun way to set traps :) Just not something I expected from the original description of timer behaviors.



Yup, this is by design. :)

It would be an issue if you uncloaked and the site timer didn't initiate.
However, in-house tests are showing us that the timer starts when you uncloak. Big smile


Awwwwwwwwyeah this is awesome!!
Tora Hamaji
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2013-11-13 15:44:24 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Tora Hamaji wrote:
1- make a GUARANTEED valuable loot in EVERY container, so that players have to make a decision which ones to hack and which to leave, since most of the time rats will spawn on the 2nd hack, OR bring a friend and encourage teamwork.


In addition to what others have said about the loot tables on sisi not being finalized, I just wanted to address this point in particular.

I would certainly support the idea that perhaps every site should have at least one "valuable" item (depending on overall rarity of the sites), but NOT every container. Fitting a cargo scanner to determine which can has the good loot is a significant fitting tradeoff for at least some of the ships I've played with for these sites. Do I give up a scram, or a dual-prop, or a shield mod for that cargo scanner? Or do I not bother with the scanner and just take my chances that I can hack three or all four of the cans?

It also gives an edge to those who have specifically researched the mechanics of and fit ships for these sites vs. those who just accidentally wander into one and hack a can at random.


Only an idiot would not have a cargo scanner, I am assuming that the sites are being done WITH one.


The idea is not to increase the overall value of the site, but to make the player make a CHOICE! he cannot hack all 4 cans and get all the loot, and the loot values may differ depending on the economy or what the player needs.

The player will have to choose whether he does the site alone, in which case he has to choose WHICH containers to hack, or to take the risk of waiting to bring a friend to hack all the cans.

Both scenarios will make the game play more interesting since the player will have to compromise and make choices rather than just scan the 1-2 cans that are most valuable and ignore the rest.