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Using Bastion Mode is seen as agression against another capsuleer

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Cassiel Seraphim
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-11-13 00:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassiel Seraphim
As it stands, the weapon timer refreshes continuously as long as the bastion module is active, so it's not just stopping you from docking while the module is turned on, it actually stops you for a full minute after you turn the module off.

Now I can see the reasoning behind the weapon timer being applied, somewhat. But why the extra minute? Wouldn't it be enough to simply cause a 60 second weapon timer upon activation of the module, instead of constantly refreshing it every second?

If you activate it [the bastion module], you'll have a weapon timer preventing you from docking for the entire duration of the bastion cycle. Should you actually engage in combat, the natural application of the weapon timer will take care of the rest. You'd still achieve the same goal that way, stopping people from activating bastion without committing ... but without giving them twice the time penalty (2 minutes instead of 1 minute) even if they remain passive.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#22 - 2013-11-13 00:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Tell me CCP, how many Dreads need undock, not siege, and simple fire 1 shot at the dead stationary battleship to alpha it? How many arty fit Nags, if it's actually more than 1, with selectable damage type? Oh yeah and cynos & covert cynos exist too.
How about they do siege, from 100% cap and in dock range, and only get a 1minute weapons timer, so can dock after the remaining 3.5mins of siege runs down, while they have plenty of EHP? Oh and they can refit off of an unaggressed carrier that's also immune. These are ships of comparable worth and SP demand.

Why can't you just ban Bastion from station grids if station games upset your sandbox so much?

Why isn't aggroing someone in a 1bil hull that's dead stationary enough of a risk for the 99% of the time not worth 10% of the fit after insurance possible hostile response reward?

Why the hell would anyone PvP in your Marauders, and how? They're freaking battleships, that need to give a mid over to an MJD to use that bonus. They aren't kiting anyone, they're bonused to active tanking when committed to being dead still. Motherfucking :psyccp: Shocked
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#23 - 2013-11-13 08:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Tell me CCP, how many Dreads need undock, not siege, and simple fire 1 shot at the dead stationary battleship to alpha it? How many arty fit Nags, if it's actually more than 1, with selectable damage type? Oh yeah and cynos & covert cynos exist too.
How about they do siege, from 100% cap and in dock range, and only get a 1minute weapons timer, so can dock after the remaining 3.5mins of siege runs down, while they have plenty of EHP? Oh and they can refit off of an unaggressed carrier that's also immune. These are ships of comparable worth and SP demand.


He makes a point here. And I always said that considering the price and skill requirements of Marauders, they could use a little more "awesome".

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#24 - 2013-11-13 09:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Altrue wrote:
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Tell me CCP, how many Dreads need undock, not siege, and simple fire 1 shot at the dead stationary battleship to alpha it? How many arty fit Nags, if it's actually more than 1, with selectable damage type? Oh yeah and cynos & covert cynos exist too.
How about they do siege, from 100% cap and in dock range, and only get a 1minute weapons timer, so can dock after the remaining 3.5mins of siege runs down, while they have plenty of EHP? Oh and they can refit off of an unaggressed carrier that's also immune. These are ships of comparable worth and SP demand.


He makes a point here. And I always said that considering the price and skill requirements of Marauders, they could use a little more "awesome".

i do fully agrre with him, another thing that his bugging me is the dictor buble dock game

undock dictor => bubble while stil in dock range => dock back

yea, dictors launching a bubble, does NOT bring aggro, while you all would agree this is clearly an agression, yet, this is ongoing for month (years?)

and they are immune because they can stay immune while stoping there ship, then bubble and dock in a split second, while stil being too close to station for smartbombs, and can't be locked in time
Luscius Uta
#25 - 2013-11-13 09:19:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is intended. It is there to prevent people from using Bastion for powerful docking games.


That makes sense, otherwise people would enter bastion mode when they want to deaggress. However, weapon timer not clearing when you lose your ship and end up in a pod (as it used to be before Retribution) makes little sense as the only thing it does is forcing you to warp around between celestials for 60 seconds. The only exception to that is when you're in a bubble but also in docking/jumping range.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#26 - 2013-11-13 09:23:46 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is intended. It is there to prevent people from using Bastion for powerful docking games.


That makes sense, otherwise people would enter bastion mode when they want to deaggress. However, weapon timer not clearing when you lose your ship and end up in a pod (as it used to be before Retribution) makes little sense as the only thing it does is forcing you to warp around between celestials for 60 seconds. The only exception to that is when you're in a bubble but also in docking/jumping range.

no big change here, there was always a session change timer preventing you to dock / jump when you got killed on gate / station, this is why the first thing one teach to a new pvp pilot is to warp out when killed on gate / station instead of trying to dock / jump
Luscius Uta
#27 - 2013-11-13 10:11:56 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is intended. It is there to prevent people from using Bastion for powerful docking games.


That makes sense, otherwise people would enter bastion mode when they want to deaggress. However, weapon timer not clearing when you lose your ship and end up in a pod (as it used to be before Retribution) makes little sense as the only thing it does is forcing you to warp around between celestials for 60 seconds. The only exception to that is when you're in a bubble but also in docking/jumping range.

no big change here, there was always a session change timer preventing you to dock / jump when you got killed on gate / station, this is why the first thing one teach to a new pvp pilot is to warp out when killed on gate / station instead of trying to dock / jump


It *is* a big change, session change was 10 seconds IIRC, not the whole minute.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Kikusama
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-11-13 11:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kikusama
People ITT ignoring bump mechanics Straight

Even if the aggression timer would only start when bastion is activated, without having it refresh, whilst in bastion you will be bumped away from any gate or station in range and get webbed and scrammed there by anyone even 1/3 competent in terms of PvP. Nobody will run circles around you without touching, allowing you to stay in dock range or gate jump range whilst tanking insane amounts of damage.

Thus this timer refresh changes nothing. If you jump your marauder in a gatecamp and bastion up, you are committed 100%, weapons timer or not.

Guns make the news. Science doesn't.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#29 - 2013-11-13 11:31:38 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is intended. It is there to prevent people from using Bastion for powerful docking games.


That makes sense, otherwise people would enter bastion mode when they want to deaggress. However, weapon timer not clearing when you lose your ship and end up in a pod (as it used to be before Retribution) makes little sense as the only thing it does is forcing you to warp around between celestials for 60 seconds. The only exception to that is when you're in a bubble but also in docking/jumping range.

no big change here, there was always a session change timer preventing you to dock / jump when you got killed on gate / station, this is why the first thing one teach to a new pvp pilot is to warp out when killed on gate / station instead of trying to dock / jump


It *is* a big change, session change was 10 seconds IIRC, not the whole minute.

nope, 30 sec
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#30 - 2013-11-13 11:33:06 UTC
Kikusama wrote:
People ITT ignoring bump mechanics Straight

Even if the aggression timer would only start when bastion is activated, without having it refresh, whilst in bastion you will be bumped away from any gate or station in range and get webbed and scrammed there. Nobody will run circles around you, allowing you to stay in dock range or gate jump range whilst tanking insane amounts of damage.

Thus this timer refresh changes nothing. If you jump your marauder in a gatecamp and bastion up, you are committed 100%, weapons timer or not.

they shouldn't be able to be bumped, pointed or webed in bastion, so.....if they drift, THEY failed
Kikusama
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-11-13 11:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kikusama
Dreads are bumpable in siege, carriers are bumpable in triage, most likely Marauders are bumpable in bastion. Why do you think nobody enters siege on stations with Rapiers/Huggins off for web support?

Edit: obviously there is a confusion here between points and webs (module-related mechanics) and bumps, which are in-game physics engine related.

Edit 2: Dreads and carriers receive a huge mass penalty whilst sieged, respectively triaged, thus making it much harder to bump. This would be to prevent bumping a triaged carrier back into the POS shields whilst repping. This mass penalty isn't present on the bastion module, thus any dude in a plated Cynabal can bump you to kingdom come.

Edit 3: why shouldn't you be bumpable in bastion? Also I meant you'll be instantly tackled as you exit bastion, since even remotely competent people spam scram and web on stuff that are immune whilst sieged/triaged/bastioned.

Guns make the news. Science doesn't.
Kari Juptris
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#32 - 2013-11-13 12:41:06 UTC
Ah yes... carebear tears.Cool
Mhtsos
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#33 - 2013-11-13 13:55:15 UTC
Quote:
..some great lore..

I'm sure I speak for the entie POS workers union when I demand a full scale investigation on the effects of long term exposure to atomised strontium type hardeners on our clone's health.
Maegor Stark
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-11-13 16:11:08 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


At first I was like "That would mean you could have invulnerable AI controlled ships!!"

but then I was like "Oh wow, that is the definition of Concord"
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-11-13 16:31:17 UTC
Mhtsos wrote:
Quote:
..some great lore..

I'm sure I speak for the entie POS workers union when I demand a full scale investigation on the effects of long term exposure to atomised strontium type hardeners on our clone's health.


The effects of radiation drop off very rapidly with distance such that the regular hull of a POS stops what's coming off the shields while in reinforced mode. You're fine.

Maegor Stark wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


At first I was like "That would mean you could have invulnerable AI controlled ships!!"

but then I was like "Oh wow, that is the definition of Concord"


Yes, CONCORD ships are loaded with all kinds of secret tech, and that includes a means to both permanently recycle the energized strontium without depleting it (despite the much higher energy levels required for invulnerability) and shield the crew & ship equipment from the effects of the radiation.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Aryndel Vyst
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-11-13 18:51:36 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P



Nerd.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#37 - 2013-11-13 18:53:24 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P

one time I huffed what I thought were strontium clathrates but really it was just cocaine cut with quarry lime
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#38 - 2013-11-13 18:55:52 UTC
needless to say I lacerated the entirety of my nasal mucous membranes and then I had to JESUS CHRIST WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#39 - 2013-11-13 22:34:54 UTC
Cassiel Seraphim wrote:
Now I can see the reasoning behind the weapon timer being applied, somewhat. But why the extra minute? Wouldn't it be enough to simply cause a 60 second weapon timer upon activation of the module, instead of constantly refreshing it every second?


Timer lasts a minute.
Bastion lasts a minute.

Not much point in having the timer if it'll always wind down right as you want to get out of bastion.

The reason for the timer as I see it is to prevent a specific scenario:

1. Marauder sits on a gate or station.
2. Marauder enters bastion and pew pews for a minute. Tanks very well.
3. Marauder enters new bastion cycle. Stops pew. Still tanks very well.
4. Marauder exits bastion just as aggro timer expires. Jumps gate or docks up.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler
raylu D
HELLSINKER
#40 - 2013-11-14 00:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: raylu D
EDIT: whoops, ignore me
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