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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#1241 - 2013-11-13 00:27:30 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1242 - 2013-11-13 00:33:02 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:


As for those stats...meh they would mean nothing if they got the drop on you. 53km+ optimal & 450+ dps mean nothing if you can't hit your target orbiting at 3-5kms. (and at those ranges your nomen./zealot is dead.)



Nomen has both a neut and drones


Caracals are also usually dead if they get tackled by a frigate or two. 22k EHP is quite low... couple that with 250ish DPS and frigates that are tackling you have some some serious time to put dps on you and have their friends catch up.


Sure if you 1v1 a frigate in a cruiser, you'll win every time, but you NEVER face one frigate in a kitey nano-Cruiser.
Leokokim
Know your Role
Pandemic Horde
#1243 - 2013-11-13 00:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Taoist Dragon wrote:


As for those stats...meh they would mean nothing if they got the drop on you. 53km+ optimal & 450+ dps mean nothing if you can't hit your target orbiting at 3-5kms. (and at those ranges your nomen./zealot is dead.)



Good luck getting a 0-5k drop on something that can fly over 3k m/s. Quite impossible tbh
Taoist Dragon
The Flying Dead.
#1244 - 2013-11-13 00:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Leokokim wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:


As for those stats...meh they would mean nothing if they got the drop on you. 53km+ optimal & 450+ dps mean nothing if you can't hit your target orbiting at 3-5kms. (and at those ranges your nomen./zealot is dead.)



Good luck getting a 0-5k drop on something that can fly over 3k m/s. Quite impossible tbh


Yeah like a cynabal has never been killed by an AB frig before. Duh! have you lot only been playing for a year?!

Hell THE counter to fast mwd cruisers were AB/SCRAM/WEB frigs for years!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#1245 - 2013-11-13 00:47:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll cut to the chase and say that the conclusion is to go ahead with the change...
Awww man. Why did you have to go and Prime yourself? This is EXACTLY what happened in the Loot Bukkake thread. I just hope you don't get invited to expand your resume along with him - we like you! This is a terrible idea btw.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1246 - 2013-11-13 00:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Leokokim wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:


As for those stats...meh they would mean nothing if they got the drop on you. 53km+ optimal & 450+ dps mean nothing if you can't hit your target orbiting at 3-5kms. (and at those ranges your nomen./zealot is dead.)



Good luck getting a 0-5k drop on something that can fly over 3k m/s. Quite impossible tbh


Yeah like a cynabal has never been killed by an AB frig before. Duh! have you lot only been playing for a year?!

Hell THE counter to fast mwd cruisers were AB/SCRAM/WEB frigs for years!


An AB/SCRAM/WEB frig counters a MWD Cruiser how?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1247 - 2013-11-13 00:51:02 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
June Ting wrote:
Replace 5% RLML ROF bonus on Caracal and Bellicose with 7.5% RLML reload time bonus? It's really odd that the reload time dominates the performance of the RLML module, but that there is no set of skills that will mitigate the impact of the reload.


This is another issue with these changes that has not been emphasized enough. There is no way to mitigate the stupidly slow reload times like there is with the slow firing rates of artillery. On top of that, RoF bonuses will be much, much less desirable with these things than straight damage bonuses.

Modules, rigs, and ship bonuses on new vessels geared towards decreasing reload time would be highly interesting. It wouldn't surprise me to see some in the near future.

By the way RoF bonuses will still be the better bonus. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1248 - 2013-11-13 00:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
Ranger 1 wrote:

By the way RoF bonuses will still be the better bonus. Smile


Don't see how seeing as it entails a greater loss of sustained DPS. Care to explain?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1249 - 2013-11-13 00:56:03 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
@bouh: My example was more specifically geared towards if I were to engage another cruiser and it calls its friends


Of course you will never want to engage another cruiser with these things which is the entire point of these changes. Never mind that turret cruisers aren't forced to make a definitive choice like that, and are more than capable of being fitted for fighting cruisers and frigates at the same time.


And yet, as we have seen, in a 5 vs 5 engagement the new system will definitively beat the other group... go figure. SmileSmile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1250 - 2013-11-13 01:13:14 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
@bouh: My example was more specifically geared towards if I were to engage another cruiser and it calls its friends


Of course you will never want to engage another cruiser with these things which is the entire point of these changes. Never mind that turret cruisers aren't forced to make a definitive choice like that, and are more than capable of being fitted for fighting cruisers and frigates at the same time.


And yet, as we have seen, in a 5 vs 5 engagement the new system will definitively beat the other group... go figure. SmileSmile


We have seen this? Where have we seen this?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1251 - 2013-11-13 01:16:18 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

By the way RoF bonuses will still be the better bonus. Smile


Don't see how seeing as it entails a greater loss of sustained DPS. Care to explain?

A 50% bonus to damage provides 50% more DPS.
A 50% bonus to RoF provides 100% more DPS.

Also, in this context your damage is concentrated in a much shorter time frame, allowing less time for local or remote reps to save the target before destruction. The main advantage of burst damage is to do as much damage as quickly as possible, to overwhelm the ships defenses and kill it before it has a chance to repair (or be repaired).

Furthermore, a RoF bonus also gets you started on that pesky reload timer more quickly, allowing you to get past it and ultimately get more volleys in over the long run.



View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1252 - 2013-11-13 01:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
@bouh: My example was more specifically geared towards if I were to engage another cruiser and it calls its friends


Of course you will never want to engage another cruiser with these things which is the entire point of these changes. Never mind that turret cruisers aren't forced to make a definitive choice like that, and are more than capable of being fitted for fighting cruisers and frigates at the same time.


And yet, as we have seen, in a 5 vs 5 engagement the new system will definitively beat the other group... go figure. SmileSmile


We have seen this? Where have we seen this?


This post sums it up nicely.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3866986#post3866986

If your burst damage focuses on targets and kills them more quickly, there is less damage incoming towards you while you are reloading. This adds up relatively quickly.

Think of it as you are reducing large chunks of their damage more quickly than their more gradual damage is decreasing yours.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1253 - 2013-11-13 01:33:35 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
@bouh: My example was more specifically geared towards if I were to engage another cruiser and it calls its friends


Of course you will never want to engage another cruiser with these things which is the entire point of these changes. Never mind that turret cruisers aren't forced to make a definitive choice like that, and are more than capable of being fitted for fighting cruisers and frigates at the same time.


And yet, as we have seen, in a 5 vs 5 engagement the new system will definitively beat the other group... go figure. SmileSmile


We have seen this? Where have we seen this?


This post sums it up nicely.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3866986#post3866986

If your burst damage focuses on targets and kills them more quickly, there is less damage incoming towards you while you are reloading. This adds up relatively quickly.

Think of it as you are reducing large chunks of their damage more quickly than their more gradual damage is decreasing yours.


What does any of that have to do with a 5v5 fight between RLML Cerbs and other anti-frig HACs? Or was that not what you were saying?
Taoist Dragon
The Flying Dead.
#1254 - 2013-11-13 01:36:28 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Leokokim wrote:
Taoist Dragon wrote:


As for those stats...meh they would mean nothing if they got the drop on you. 53km+ optimal & 450+ dps mean nothing if you can't hit your target orbiting at 3-5kms. (and at those ranges your nomen./zealot is dead.)



Good luck getting a 0-5k drop on something that can fly over 3k m/s. Quite impossible tbh


Yeah like a cynabal has never been killed by an AB frig before. Duh! have you lot only been playing for a year?!

Hell THE counter to fast mwd cruisers were AB/SCRAM/WEB frigs for years!


An AB/SCRAM/WEB frig counters a MWD Cruiser how?


Oh boy!

Do you really think that what you do on grid affects the fight more than what you do off grid BEFORE you engage?! Hmmm you might need to think on that one a bit I reckon. Lol

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1255 - 2013-11-13 01:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
650+ DPS RLML-Tengu is going to be absolutely brutal. Caracals, nom-nom.
Can I at least laugh about the CN Rapid Light Missile Launchers selling for $100-million apiece @ Jita? Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1256 - 2013-11-13 01:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
What does any of that have to do with a 5v5 fight between RLML Cerbs and other anti-frig HACs? Or was that not what you were saying?

Sorry for the confusion, I was primarily referring to a 5vs5 Caracal fight... new system vs current (or what the alternative nerf would be). Although to be honest, the same principal applies regardless, all other factors being roughly equal.

The ability to apply burst damage to even other cruisers is superior to the alternative (a straight damage nerf). It allows you to leverage the damage you still do much more effectively.

This advantage diminishes, of course, the larger the target is (and the larger it's buffer is) as you lose the advantage of superior damage application compared to your adversary... but that goes with the role it is attempting to fill.

I would much rather take the inevitable DPS nerf with the ability to concentrate that damage in short but very potent bursts, than simply take a straight DPS nerf.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
#1257 - 2013-11-13 02:01:15 UTC
This change increases the power of the rlm caracal in the situation where it was already powerful enough, which is killing frigates. It massively decreases it's ability to fight cruisers (as they have enough buffer to survive the initial clip) and it's ability to deal with multiple opponents, or react to any immediate change in a situation (well it can but it takes 40 seconds to do so).

While it has ammo it is no better than an omen or rail thorax. When it runs out of ammo (which will happen quickly) it's reload time make it completely useless and unable to react to new things appearing on field. I keep asking why I would have any reason to use rlms outside of shooting 1-2 lightly tanked frigates and warping out when the omen and thorax are able to give the exact same damage only the caracal is unable to sustain it or react via changing ammo without rending itself useless for an absurd amount of time.

If you dont think 40 seconds is an absurd amount of time, please watch the video someone was kind enough to link earlier and tell me how that would play out in a pvp situation vs multiple opponents.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#1258 - 2013-11-13 02:03:51 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
650+ DPS RLML-Tengu is going to be absolutely brutal. Caracals, nom-nom.
Can I at least laugh about the CN Rapid Light Missile Launchers selling for $100-million apiece @ Jita? Lol



And people thought the Tengu was OP before, just wait til that hits the street and you've got 100% application to anything other than interceptors.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1259 - 2013-11-13 02:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mhari Dson wrote:
And people thought the Tengu was OP before, just wait til that hits the street and you've got 100% application to anything other than interceptors.

Add a Gravitational Capacitor, the new Ascendancy implants, a WS-615 warp implant, three T2 Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizers and it's going to be a force to be reckoned with. These could be really, really nasty in small gangs going forward.

Since it's somewhat apparent now we were either looking at a RLML/RHML nerf -or- what we're going with, I'm not sure why this wasn't just stated from the outset...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1260 - 2013-11-13 02:21:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
What does any of that have to do with a 5v5 fight between RLML Cerbs and other anti-frig HACs? Or was that not what you were saying?

Sorry for the confusion, I was primarily referring to a 5vs5 Caracal fight... new system vs current (or what the alternative nerf would be). Although to be honest, the same principal applies regardless, all other factors being roughly equal.


All other factors are not equal. 40s is a loooong time to allow shields to regen and allow the new system caracals to apply dps. They lose 2 caracals before reload, but the 3rd caracal on each side dies at about the same time, and the 4th old caracal lives until 2nd reload. I think the old caracals will win.

This is assuming they just sit there and shoot each other. If people are dodging point and warping out, the new system caracals get absolutely shafted by wasted volleys.