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New Dev Blog: CSM Special Summit -- Meeting minutes are out

First post First post
Author
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#61 - 2011-09-09 17:46:03 UTC
Sugar coat whatever you like CCP; those smoothed phrases, platitudes and promises - your tone is an irrelevance, your words meaningless.

What you do.

Not what you say.

C.

Razin
The Scope
#62 - 2011-09-09 17:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Razin
CSM minutes June 2011 wrote:
Both before and during the meeting the CSM also expressed their desire for the return of ship spinning, as spinning the ship in station is a meaningful part of the game experience to many players. To address both this issue and performance concerns, CCP offered to implement an environment that would be similar in look and function to the old hangar view, and would include ship spinning. It should be noted that the old hangar view itself will not be returning, but something similar will take its place. The CSM will be kept informed throughout the design of this feature. The option to disable the loading of station environments will be retained until this matter has been addressed.

Was it really that difficult to negotiate some kind of schedule out of CCP??? I mean, anyone who's been involved with this game for longer then a couple of months understands that this kind of statement is completely worthless without a schedule (ok, sure it's still mostly worthless with a schedule, but still better). Even something like "this year", or "within a year" would have been better.

Damn.
Tethys Atreides
The Audacity of Huge
#63 - 2011-09-09 18:28:49 UTC
Quote:
The CSM generally agreed that from a purely technical standpoint, Incarna had generally been a very successful expansion. Apart from the usual and expected hiccups, the deployment of the software was very smooth.


Really? How much Brennivín had you guys sucked down by this point?

Vapid platitudes aside, what struck me upon first reading this is how much time you spent complaining about the NeX pricing, and how little you talked about the distribution of effort between flying in space (FiS) and walking in stations (WiS). NeX exists to make CCP money. They are going to find a sweet spot eventually. The issue is how much of CCPs resources are being focused on that goal. There is a point of diminishing returns at which people will just stop playing, regardless of how good their characters look, because they are bored. I wish you had addressed this rather than bickering over pricing strategies.

I thank you guys for getting a firm commitment from CCP regarding "Golden Ammo". Good job on that.

Last but not least. Many of the issues surrounding the release of Incarna were chalked up to "a failure of communication". Don't you think that taking 3 months to publish 8 pages of text is just another in a long string failures? Why did it take so long to put this vanilla document in front of the players?






(Crossposted from GD thread)
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2011-09-09 19:10:09 UTC
Bel Amar wrote:
Those minutes didn't really seem to say anything we didn't already know, and no new specifics seem to have been clarified further... Given the rather banal nature, I'm left even more confused as to why it took so long and caused so much back and forth between the CSM & CCP...



LOL, this is exactly what I expected...What did you think meeting minutes were? A revelation of something else we didnt know? You must have never been in a company that does meeting minutes - We take meeting minutes EVERYDAY at my job and they are in line with this.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB

White Tree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-09-09 20:05:37 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
Quote:
After reading the CSM statement, Hilmar made some suggestions as to its tone. The CSM thanked
Hilmar for his advice, but decided that it properly expressed their conclusions. It was released unedited.


yes, I bet that was exactly what happen, polite and all...

--

This is what I imagine that really happen at that point:

After reading the CSM statement, Hilmar picked up the sword won in the last fanfest and immediately try to kill Mittens. Thanks to his fast spy moves, Mittens ducked and disarmed Hilmar. Then a fist fight started between the two. A huge brawl then started with the remaining CSM members grabbing Zulu and using him as a punching bag. Mittens and Hilmar epic fight lead them to the corridors and several rooms of the building. After 20 minutes Hilmar asked for parley and the fight stop. At this point Hilmar looks up and says "what is that" and when Mittens looks up he runs away never to be seen or heard to this day. After Zulu lost is conscience and Hilmar run away, the CSM statement was released unedited.

Now if something like this was in the minutes I would believe it faster then I believe in that sentence above.

this happened

Former member of CSM6.

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#66 - 2011-09-09 20:13:12 UTC
White Tree wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
Quote:
After reading the CSM statement, Hilmar made some suggestions as to its tone. The CSM thanked
Hilmar for his advice, but decided that it properly expressed their conclusions. It was released unedited.


yes, I bet that was exactly what happen, polite and all...

--

This is what I imagine that really happen at that point:

After reading the CSM statement, Hilmar picked up the sword won in the last fanfest and immediately try to kill Mittens. Thanks to his fast spy moves, Mittens ducked and disarmed Hilmar. Then a fist fight started between the two. A huge brawl then started with the remaining CSM members grabbing Zulu and using him as a punching bag. Mittens and Hilmar epic fight lead them to the corridors and several rooms of the building. After 20 minutes Hilmar asked for parley and the fight stop. At this point Hilmar looks up and says "what is that" and when Mittens looks up he runs away never to be seen or heard to this day. After Zulu lost is conscience and Hilmar run away, the CSM statement was released unedited.

Now if something like this was in the minutes I would believe it faster then I believe in that sentence above.

this happened


"I WAS THERE!" Pirate

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

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John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
#67 - 2011-09-09 20:53:57 UTC
It's old news, we await to see if CCP rebuilds trust with the community but this simple statement, had it been made on day one, would have stopped all the drama in its tracks:

Quote:
CCP began the session by stating for the record that there are not, nor have there ever been, any plans to introduce game-breaking items or enhancements to EVE. The “Fearless” internal newsletter


13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
#68 - 2011-09-09 20:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Onnen Mentar
Very poor.

Can't help but feel CCP (particularly top management) have decided their job is no longer to provide something of value (a game to have fun in). Instead they want EVE to be something real.. A real $$$ printing machine powered by rats lured (and kept?) there using cheap marketing/psychology tricks.

EVE used to be a story with hamsters, now it's all about rats.
Levaria
Incertae Sedis
#69 - 2011-09-09 20:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Levaria
So it takes two months for these meeting notes which basically do nothing but add more fluff being thrown at the player base..

I particulary enjoyed "Incarna was a success from a technical standpoint"......Shocked

Actions speak louder then words CCP. The game is broken, sov is broken, FW is broken, PI is broken. Attempting to release half finished expansions to divert attention away from any percieved criticism or flaws in the past expasions and attempted balances is just stupid. Just listen to the community, it shouldnt take sabre rattling, ALT-F4'ing and account cancelling, and Forum Rage tear producing threadnaughts to attempt to reason with the devs.

I was really looking forward to these Meeting Minutes but in the end it just seems to be another rehash and CCP's attempt at glossing things over with "yeah we F***** up, but we promise..pinky promise we will do better next time". Read between the lines people, more PR fluff, less Real life stuff.
Aineko Macx
#70 - 2011-09-09 21:06:20 UTC
lol, so much hassle for THAT?

You have long lost the trust of your customers CCP, and now you try to gain every possible inch at saving face? lollerskates...
Heinrich Hamilton
OMNI-TECH INC.
Articles of Allegiance
#71 - 2011-09-09 22:26:47 UTC
So, after weeks, now months of EvE players burning up the forumns demanding the minutes we get this ersatz pile of uber redacted doublspeak. I appreciate the work that the CSM has done and I am disapointed that CCP with its disconnected management didn't have the sufficient manhood to display the true "tone" of the meeting or the integrity to print their points. opinions, and words.

Frankly, only cowards/ liars/ fools hide behind legal-corporate double speak. I am very disapointed. Creativity and good management cannot exist in an environment that the CCP management is creating. This does not bode well for EvE Online or its players.

Do me a favor though. Next time you redact something into nothingness at least leave the blacked out portions that one normally sees in printed documents from totalitarian regimes. It would add a little excitement and interest to what is about as exciting as a stale fart.
AnzacPaul
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2011-09-09 23:05:32 UTC
Appreciate the minutes finally being released, but after so long, and it publicly being known that both CCP and CSM had edited the minutes their own way, can we really believe anything that was said in there?

Having said that, it's as I predicted. Nothing is wrong at CCP.


Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#73 - 2011-09-09 23:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Quote:
CCP : words, we need lots of words to say precisely nothing new at all


so business as usual then, the customer base clamours for the structure of eve to be fixed, CCP ignore them & stock up the NEX store waiting for the next idiot to buy so they can justify the "awesome" ™ amount of time and resources expended on giving us a dingy basement with dodgy lighting. Not a change for some people admittedly but at least it's not their mums' basement Straight.

Unfortunately Eve is the only game in town when it comes to arseing around in MMO spaceships, so they have us by the balls Ugh

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Bel Amar
Rules of Acquisition
#74 - 2011-09-10 00:02:27 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
The player providing the RL money for a performance boost would often not even know what was just bought with his money as all he did was sell a PLEX for ISK.

...

But the actual sentences credited to the CSM in these minutes don't expound on this issue (of perspectives & equilibrium) and instead give CCP an easy way out.

The whole ISK - PLEX - AUR tie-in is a rather devious (brilliant!) scheme that counters most blunt criticism of "power" MTs by construction.


Your whole premise seems somewhat faulty to me. You're trying to read the somewhat underdetailed minutes like they're a contract. I think it's very clear what the CSM meant. It's not clear than CCP intends to adhere to the CSMs wishes, but to me it's clear they understood them. If and when CCP does go down the gold ammo route, I'm not going to happily accept it just because CCP managed to find a possible second unintended interpretation out of the CSMs words.

This meeting was about presenting (the CSMs interpretation of) the communities concerns to CCP. I think they did that, and niggles over the wording of how they did it is somewhat missing the point.

When the mob is on your door screaming "Down with all youse at CCP" pretending that you don't understand them isn't going to change anything :)
Bel Amar
Rules of Acquisition
#75 - 2011-09-10 00:07:05 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
We take meeting minutes EVERYDAY at my job and they are in line with this.


Then you're doing it wrong :)
Darth Sith
Genbuku.
Psycho Unicorn Squad
#76 - 2011-09-10 00:33:56 UTC
TBH, I got more information released as a result of the initial CSM document and the subsequent information releases since then. This meeting minutes basically said .... nothing.


Can I have the 12 minuted back I spent reading this as an SP credit plz ?


Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#77 - 2011-09-10 01:57:23 UTC
I wrote a quick blog about the events of today to try and put everything in one place: Minutes & Meetings

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!

Officer Spawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#78 - 2011-09-10 06:08:56 UTC
Thanks to all involved for finally getting the minutes out. Maybe one day the full story can be told.

Two things I believe the CSM let CCP get away with:

-'EVE is one of our core projects' is managementspeak for 'EVE really is not that important to us'. Note how FiS is now only a part of one of the core projects of CCP, competing (and losing badly it seems) with other projects for resources.

-The lack of gamebreaking bugs in the Incarna release is directly related to the lack of FiS content which could impact existing content which is still mostly FiS. Yes, POSes did not start shooting neutrals when the Minmatar Jail Cell was introduced but this is not some huge achievment from CCP. At some point in the future when (if) they get around to dealing with POSes there is no indication it will not be a huge bugfest as their CCP's QA is still somewhere between hopeless and non-existant as the Incarna 1.1 offlining bug showed. As the CQ has no interaction between players it's easy for it to have no game-impacting bugs.
Tara Nighthawk
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2011-09-10 10:38:31 UTC
White Tree wrote:
Bel Amar wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
If the CSM did really voice these concerns as represented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.


They appeared to represent my concerns fairly well. A secondary isk market is ultimately irrelevant if the primary market involves performance boosting items that must initially be purchased with cash.


Keep in mind a lot of people just hate on us because it's cool and trendy and they're basically never able to be satisfied with anything we ever do. I learned this pretty quickly.



The hate is not personal. People complain on the Forums because EVE now takes ages to load what is essentially a useless CQ, crashes repeatedly when entering or leaving Dock, closes the Cargohold every time you Gate or Dock/Undock, offlines modules at random intervals and is generally much less stable than it used to be.

There is no evidence of any kind of QA prior to the release of a patch.

Instead of fixing these issues before releasing the patches, or even addressing them promptly after release, developers are spending time developing WIS and NEX, which even if any Players actually wanted them are not in any way more urgent than getting the actual game working properly.

EVE is a Space Game. Walking around in the Station is all very impressive, but not at the expense of the space travel which is the purpose of the game.
Lu'Marat
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2011-09-10 12:02:04 UTC
I just have a really simple question:

Why on earth didn't you people tell us that these minutes essentially contain two versions of the same thing?
At least, that's what seems to have happened if Jester's blog is anything to go by. Why did the CSM go and express happiness about this "essentially unedited" version of the minutes if what you really did was include the CSM minutes with "CSM said" and the CCP minutes with "CCP said"? Or was this some sort of shameful compromise you didn't want to draw any attention to?

Ah well. Blood pressure is down to normal levels, maybe I'll even install the EVE client again. In a month or so, I shouldn't be playing these days anyway.