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Crime & Punishment

 
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Goonswarm taking candy from babies via a legitimate looking website.

Author
Probably Smashed
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2011-11-19 02:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Probably Smashed
I was going to post about how the guy who scammed for a measly 30mil is a stain on our reputation, but the above poster compared scamming evegold to rapes cases. Yeah.

edit: what a snipe, get owned lyris
Xenuria
#82 - 2011-11-19 03:03:57 UTC
This will be dealt with!
Lord Wiggin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-11-19 03:59:41 UTC
I thought you only had to pay real money to become a Goon? Oops

I likegirls
Reveka.
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#84 - 2011-11-19 05:36:47 UTC
LOL. Scammed for 30 mil which is 1/3 of your isk.

Poor peasant.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2011-11-19 07:52:19 UTC
Joshke wrote:
If i were a lawyer, ...

This is where I stopped reading, because if I were a doctor I would prescribe you crystal meth.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Jamradar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2011-11-19 10:30:40 UTC
I swear, goons can make a thread on how awesome they're scamming people every hour, along with having a someone spamming "we will scam you for 500 mil for joining us" in every single local, and take out airship ads around the world on their deeds.

And people will still try and join with their security deposit..
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#87 - 2011-11-19 11:01:47 UTC
Jamradar wrote:
I swear, goons can make a thread on how awesome they're scamming people every hour, along with having a someone spamming "we will scam you for 500 mil for joining us" in every single local, and take out airship ads around the world on their deeds.

And people will still try and join with their security deposit..

I may have heard a hilarious tale of someone with "SCAMMER: DO NOT TRUST" as his in-game title managing to still scam billions per week out of people.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2011-11-19 11:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
SMT008 wrote:
Joshke wrote:

BTW, even a verbal agreement is a contract, no matter were there "real names" and signatures.


Then how can you prove anything ?

If I tell you some crap about how I'll give you money if you do something for me, but then I don't hand over the money. What are you going to do ?

"He said that and I want him to give me 5k $ !"

How can you prove that I said anything ? And just imagine how easy it is to exploit ?

"Hey Mr Judge/lawyer, this guy told me he would give me money if I did what he asked !"

Here's what he is going to answer :

"Show me both your and his signatures on the contract that specifies the terms of the contract"

IANAL but verbal contracts are - with or without attestors - generally binding in the jurisdiction I live in (Germany).

What the judge would usually do in your example is to assess whether it is likely that you would have been willing to provide that service without any hope of compensation. If the answer is "yes" the scammer will probably get away.
If the answer to this is "no" he would look up the market-price for that type of service (just as the scammer will deny the existence of a contract you have an incentive to exaggerate the payment you were promised) and use that as a basis to reconstruct the contract.

(of course there are special restrictions on verbal contracts for special situations such as phone marketing etc)

My impression from internet discussions (lol) has been that most jurisdictions seem to operate very similarly in this regard.

The lack of detailed "terms of a contract" is no big issue - there usually is a pretty well-defined set of terms that are common in the industry and would be assumed to be implicit unless specified otherwise.
Manar Detri
#89 - 2011-11-19 12:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Manar Detri
While some goonish duderino is saying "no one cares" and "it's eve, you can scam all you want" but when you step inside the real world, there are laws governing such matters, and in this instance the webpage for scamming is in the real world, if it were only a site accessable through eve online that'd change matters and it'd fall under the eve online eula. But as long as you do something in the real world (the one we live in) the laws governing the country the scammee is in and the scammer decide what is legal and what is not.

As a small example, letsay you start spreading rumors on me being a super awesome bank robber on teh internetz, i can sue you for it. Teh internetz is not a "world" with it's own rules it's a network with access to different subnetworks connected to it globally.

Another example, someone makes a bomb threat on teh internetz, whatya think, will the copperinos go and arrest his stupid ass? :D

So wether u care about 30 million isk or not is not the issue, the issue is wether it's legal to scam people in the real world or not.

Edit: furthermore, if the dude that got scammed would want to put some goonies in court, with the amount of admitting on this thread, he'd win with certainty :D
Jacada Ansari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2011-11-19 12:37:06 UTC
Manar Detri wrote:
While some goonish duderino is saying "no one cares" and "it's eve, you can scam all you want" but when you step inside the real world, there are laws governing such matters, and in this instance the webpage for scamming is in the real world, if it were only a site accessable through eve online that'd change matters and it'd fall under the eve online eula. But as long as you do something in the real world (the one we live in) the laws governing the country the scammee is in and the scammer decide what is legal and what is not.

As a small example, letsay you start spreading rumors on me being a super awesome bank robber on teh internetz, i can sue you for it. Teh internetz is not a "world" with it's own rules it's a network with access to different subnetworks connected to it globally.

Another example, someone makes a bomb threat on teh internetz, whatya think, will the copperinos go and arrest his stupid ass? :D

So wether u care about 30 million isk or not is not the issue, the issue is wether it's legal to scam people in the real world or not.

Edit: furthermore, if the dude that got scammed would want to put some goonies in court, with the amount of admitting on this thread, he'd win with certainty :D


I don't think you quite understand the divide between real life and eve, your grasp on the law also seems rather questionable. Maybe you should stop trying to move your internet space ships into the realms of real life and just stick to mining or whatever you do for fun.
Manar Detri
#91 - 2011-11-19 14:42:22 UTC
Jacada Ansari wrote:

I don't think you quite understand the divide between real life and eve, your grasp on the law also seems rather questionable. Maybe you should stop trying to move your internet space ships into the realms of real life and just stick to mining or whatever you do for fun.


This is where you fail, internetz is in the real world :P things inside eve not.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#92 - 2011-11-19 15:41:49 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Oh, and Mittens is a lawyer actually. I think he knows how real world legal issues work.




I'm a lawyer as well. I can confirm that there are plenty of lawyers out there who are clueless idiots. It's kind of embarassing for the profession to see it sometimes. Hell, you should see the grammar mistakes I see in legal papers sometimes. I don't know him, but I wouldn't make the assumption he knows anythying, particularly anything beyond whatever practice area he works in. Seems he spends much more time playing at internet spaceships than reviewing precedent and so forth.

No good deed goes unpunished

Alita Ishtal
Herb Men
#93 - 2011-11-19 16:32:06 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
[quote=Azelor Delaria]

This is phishing. Mirror a commercial website in order to fool users is indeed a crime. We didn't mirror anything though. We created (Well, not me ofc, the mighty tech guy) this fine scam-machine, and it works just fine.

There is no real life issue. For the small fee of 15$/month, you're exposing yourself to being bullied/scammed, deal with it.

AND, it's not like peoples don't already know what GSF is.


Before i go on,If SM00 w/e was in my corp/alliance telling the truth about all our secrets i would kick his ass just after wasting his ratting super.

You sir have just crushed all the thoughts i had that the goons wer not scamming and all the slander was just to tarnish the goons good name.Im not sure if i can ever look a goon in the face again without thinking he is trying to scam me out of my mother.Needless to say though.Now that everyone knows the goons really do scam im sure people will stop falling for it *sarcasm*

A sad day in the life of gamming this is.Next people will tell me St.Patrick wasnt real and didnt drink enormous amounts of alcohol.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2011-11-19 17:31:39 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
SMT008 wrote:
Oh, and Mittens is a lawyer actually. I think he knows how real world legal issues work.




I'm a lawyer as well. I can confirm that there are plenty of lawyers out there who are clueless idiots. It's kind of embarassing for the profession to see it sometimes. Hell, you should see the grammar mistakes I see in legal papers sometimes. I don't know him, but I wouldn't make the assumption he knows anythying, particularly anything beyond whatever practice area he works in. Seems he spends much more time playing at internet spaceships than reviewing precedent and so forth.

I would certainly hope so, seeing as how he is retired.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2011-11-19 19:14:02 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Jamradar wrote:
I swear, goons can make a thread on how awesome they're scamming people every hour, along with having a someone spamming "we will scam you for 500 mil for joining us" in every single local, and take out airship ads around the world on their deeds.

And people will still try and join with their security deposit..

I may have heard a hilarious tale of someone with "SCAMMER: DO NOT TRUST" as his in-game title managing to still scam billions per week out of people.

well I have an alt called Shoot Blues McAwoxie420 (or something close) in a corp awoxing their barges so yeah,
Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2011-11-19 19:18:19 UTC
Alita Ishtal wrote:
SMT008 wrote:
[quote=Azelor Delaria]

This is phishing. Mirror a commercial website in order to fool users is indeed a crime. We didn't mirror anything though. We created (Well, not me ofc, the mighty tech guy) this fine scam-machine, and it works just fine.

There is no real life issue. For the small fee of 15$/month, you're exposing yourself to being bullied/scammed, deal with it.

AND, it's not like peoples don't already know what GSF is.


Before i go on,If SM00 w/e was in my corp/alliance telling the truth about all our secrets i would kick his ass just after wasting his ratting super.

You sir have just crushed all the thoughts i had that the goons wer not scamming and all the slander was just to tarnish the goons good name.Im not sure if i can ever look a goon in the face again without thinking he is trying to scam me out of my mother.Needless to say though.Now that everyone knows the goons really do scam im sure people will stop falling for it *sarcasm*

A sad day in the life of gamming this is.Next people will tell me St.Patrick wasnt real and didnt drink enormous amounts of alcohol.

I would laugh at this but Poe's Law.
Alita Ishtal
Herb Men
#97 - 2011-11-19 23:25:29 UTC
Any sufficiently advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook.^
Mohr Cowbell
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2011-11-20 00:10:00 UTC
That candy was delicious, TBH.
Ginia Itonula
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2011-11-20 10:57:12 UTC
This is the best thread ever. We have serious business types, e-lawyers, and Lyris. Only way it could get better is if one of the guys was revealed to have stalked Mittens, and one of the e-lawyers was revealed to be a McDonalds Assistant Manager.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#100 - 2011-11-20 11:39:33 UTC
Ginia Itonula wrote:
This is the best thread ever. We have serious business types, e-lawyers, and Lyris. Only way it could get better is if one of the guys was revealed to have stalked Mittens, and one of the e-lawyers was revealed to be a McDonalds Assistant Manager.

Those are some very attractive goggles you're wearing.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn