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What should CCP do about command ships vs T3? (spoiler alert: answer inside)
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Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2011-11-18 06:15:29 UTC
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Desudes wrote:
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
EDIT: And I have scanned down t3 alts during a fight - the entire fight was actually a diversion we staged to get the alt decloaked and not paying attention to scan, and we very nearly got the t3 kill out of it - our diversionary force got a bit overzealous and forced them off the field which meant they cloaked up the alt just when we had it busted. I've still got that safe if they ever come back though :(


So today I vastly out-numbered my opponent and thus was able to combat unbalanced mechanics.


It was 4v4 - 5v5 if you count their alt and our scanning alt. Pretty even too - BS and three BC's versus their two tengus and two drakes, they had sentries. Phoon nueted down one of the tengus and it decided to deaggro and dock, the rest ran - which was about when I finally got the t3 probed down, sadly.

Saying mechanics are unbalanced doesn't make it so, sorry.


My point was more along the lines of if you could force them off the field with you down a scanning pilot and them up a booster- the point of being able to scan their booster down as a balancing factor is irrelevant. You had already won the fight.

This does not detract anything from the fact that that booster alt gave them an advantage with no real price, without it actually having to be fielded and played.

All you proved was you were a superior force that almost got a pricey kill due to carelessness on the enemies part.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Relnala
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2011-11-18 06:41:07 UTC
IMHO making boosts on grid only actually makes t3 superior. You see a fleet warp on grid with a damnation, you wanna kill their fleet bonuses, you know who to primary. Fleet warps on grid with 30 legions some with sebos, who do you shoot? Superior tank by virtue of being unidentifiable.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2011-11-18 06:55:01 UTC
Relnala wrote:
IMHO making boosts on grid only actually makes t3 superior. You see a fleet warp on grid with a damnation, you wanna kill their fleet bonuses, you know who to primary. Fleet warps on grid with 30 legions some with sebos, who do you shoot? Superior tank by virtue of being unidentifiable.


91% EM, 88.5% therm, 93.4% kin, 96.5% exp with 14,271 armor hp to make 210,398 EHP on a Damnation tank I just threw together. I can imagine the joy you'll have shooting at that in a gang with RR.

It would actually make the ridiculous tank some CSs can field worth while.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#64 - 2011-11-18 20:24:12 UTC
Desudes wrote:

My point was more along the lines of if you could force them off the field with you down a scanning pilot and them up a booster- the point of being able to scan their booster down as a balancing factor is irrelevant. You had already won the fight.

This does not detract anything from the fact that that booster alt gave them an advantage with no real price, without it actually having to be fielded and played.

All you proved was you were a superior force that almost got a pricey kill due to carelessness on the enemies part.


Fair enough, and along the same lines I would expect that if there were two almost equally matched forces (except that one brought a booster alt) that the one with the booster alt would win. If you know they have an offgrid booster, you have to bring a bit more to mantain parity, or force them into a situation where they don't have time to set up the alt.

You claim carelessness on the enemies part in that their booster almost got scanned out, but your main complaint seems to be that 'no one has to be actively piloting the booster'. Those points are contradictory - if there's someone watching dscan on the t3 booster for probes, then they're more involved in the game than many missioners are, and if there isn't someone, then it's perfectly possible for you to scan out the t3 during the fight and get a juicy kill if you're more competent than we are. (bring a weaker force that keeps them on field longer.)

I'm not overly opposed to a nerf of off-grid boosting but you haven't convinced me yet that it's a crucial problem, I suppose.
draconothese
Independant Celestial Enterprises
#65 - 2011-11-18 23:12:44 UTC
servey says no you pay a lot for tech 3s they should be higher in all stats then a cheap tech 2
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2011-11-19 00:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Fair enough, and along the same lines I would expect that if there were two almost equally matched forces (except that one brought a booster alt) that the one with the booster alt would win. If you know they have an offgrid booster, you have to bring a bit more to mantain parity, or force them into a situation where they don't have time to set up the alt.


"Bring more dudes then they brought" to combat some dudes alt he isn't paying attention to doesn't sound like balance to me : / The problem is the ease of the alt vs what you need to do to combat it.

Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
You claim carelessness on the enemies part in that their booster almost got scanned out, but your main complaint seems to be that 'no one has to be actively piloting the booster'. Those points are contradictory - if there's someone watching dscan on the t3 booster for probes, then they're more involved in the game than many missioners are, and if there isn't someone, then it's perfectly possible for you to scan out the t3 during the fight and get a juicy kill if you're more competent than we are. (bring a weaker force that keeps them on field longer.)

I'm not overly opposed to a nerf of off-grid boosting but you haven't convinced me yet that it's a crucial problem, I suppose.


I am assuming the ship sat still during the engagement, correct me if I'm wrong. Carelessness is having a ship uncloaked outside of a POS not warping around the system while hostiles are around. This is sort of a basic no-no to flying around in EVE. The fact that they can get away with that is rather silly to me, as they are either very slow learns or they get away with it.

As warping shuts off ganglinks (I think?), this is much less of a point (unless you got a POS of course)



It is not a crucial problem when compared to things like the current racial imbalances but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed. How little fixes are made in EVE is disturbing.

Rebalancing ganglinks and their ships would open up a lot of options. The current system is just an alt. Weeoo, exciting. I can't think of a reason to keep the system that is in place.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Jacob Stov
#67 - 2011-11-19 00:17:17 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Dude, the same was true for the Falcons, yet they got tuned down.

My point is: grid-wide boosting changes literally nothing for small-scale PvP where it's almost impossible to hit that far while at the same time large fleets gain close to nothing, too - I mean, come on, they already have an option to scan down the booster and kill it with limited forces as the battle just starts.


Dunno if you use command ships yourself. Ganglinks are offline as long as you are in warp or cloaked. Falcons could just cloak up and warp to the next bookmark.

I would prefer this on-grid boosting. This way I could actually participate in fights with my command ships. (And the excellent tank on those ships would be worth something).
SpaceSquirrels
#68 - 2011-11-19 02:25:11 UTC
That or boost effectiveness is by distance. So you get like .5-1.0 by being further than 250km out etc.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#69 - 2011-11-19 02:38:27 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
CCP just needs to NERF off grid fleet boosting. Gang links should have a 100 - 120km effect range or something. I also think command ships should out boost t3's...


Off grid boosting was never something people bitched about until interdiction nullified effectively unprobeable T3s came onto the scene. I think its probably a good idea to take a look at what's actually causing the problem instead of whining about something that's never really been an issue.

-Liang

It may not have been bitched about much, but I know that in 2007 I read bitching about it then. Ive seen fairly consistent bitching since.

I'd prefer ON grid, but I'd settle for NOT in pos shield.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#70 - 2011-11-19 11:12:09 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
CCP just needs to NERF off grid fleet boosting. Gang links should have a 100 - 120km effect range or something. I also think command ships should out boost t3's...


Off grid boosting was never something people bitched about until interdiction nullified effectively unprobeable T3s came onto the scene. I think its probably a good idea to take a look at what's actually causing the problem instead of whining about something that's never really been an issue.

-Liang

It may not have been bitched about much, but I know that in 2007 I read bitching about it then. Ive seen fairly consistent bitching since.

I'd prefer ON grid, but I'd settle for NOT in pos shield.


Liang, while I do respect your opinion, I'm sure you can agree that just because an issue isn't an overly vocal one isn't justification to discount the possibility of it being a valid issue. I'm having a /notsureifsrs moment, you're logic is usually a bit more sound than that.

Another way to put what you said would be: It wasn't until T3's became unprobeable that everyone bandwagon embraced what was already imbalanced and now (then) completely overpowered mechanic.



I'm pretty much sold on the idea that command bonuses should be on grid to be effective, I'll admit that (should be obvious). I'm of the opinion that to gain the incredible combat bonuses that the ships provide, they should at least be on grid to provide it.

However there is always room for debate unless you're dumb or trolling:

If we are going to continue the system-wide thing I'd like to see a counter. Something more effective than trying to probe down and tackle a ship that can align to one of his multiple other safe-spots in the blink of an eye. It's all about checks and balances... as has been cited in balance discussions for years in this game, if the only counter to X on a battlefield is to bring my own X, X is probably not very well balanced against the other ships/functions in the game.

What about an on-grid dampener to nullify off-grid bonuses? Add to that an on-grid-only version of the command modules that can't be dampened?
How about throwing a POS module in the mix to dampen/distribute warfare bonuses?
The sky is the limit.


Good discussion, I'd have been more active in it but ~skyrim~

I'll check in in another week and see how the thread is doing. Until then, Pr1ncess Dovahkiin has some **** to **** up.