These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Using Bastion Mode is seen as agression against another capsuleer

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Draazz
Engineering Group Alpha
#1 - 2013-11-12 18:36:29 UTC
I undocked, and used a Bastion Module on a Vargur. Checked out several bonusses (changed ammo a couple of times to see the new optimal/falloff ranges), turned Bastion Module off and tried to dock.

Was utterly stunned to see a red agression timer in the upper left corner, and the Station refusing my docking request due to 'Agression towards another capsuleer.' With only 150 people on at the time, it's a pretty safe bet there wasn't a capsuleer in the same constellation as me.

Is this intended behaviour?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2 - 2013-11-12 18:41:34 UTC
This is intended. It is there to prevent people from using Bastion for powerful docking games.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-11-12 19:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Tubrug1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-11-12 19:17:47 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


But Bastion Mode doesn't require strontium.

Writer of The Eve Onion

I have a Twitter
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#5 - 2013-11-12 19:20:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is intended. It is there to prevent people from using Bastion for powerful docking games.


I agree its a necesary thing, otherwise you'd pop out of dock, nuke a few people and redock while still massively overtanked. with a weapons timer at least there's a window to actually have a crack at killing it.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#6 - 2013-11-12 19:21:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is intended. It is there to prevent people from using Bastion for powerful docking games.

thank god

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#7 - 2013-11-12 19:27:22 UTC
Tubrug1 wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


But Bastion Mode doesn't require strontium.

As its not fully energized, it does not get used up like in a POS. Hence it just gets recycled in a process unnoticeable to the ship's pilot. Sort of like how fuel for ship propulsion and power never need be worried about, its all handled behind the scenes.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-11-12 19:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Tubrug1 wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


But Bastion Mode doesn't require strontium.


Well, we're talking about hardening a ~1km battleship here, rather than the nearly eight thousand square kilometers that the surface of a typical large POS tower shield represents, so the material needs are significantly lower - even if a that ~1km battleship were a perfect sphere ~1km in diameter, Strontium requirements would be just 0.04% of what a POS needs. The fact that full invulnerability is not only not possible but actually undesirable lowers requirements further. And if that weren't enough, of course, you're running it about two minutes at a time instead of for hours on end. Take the three together and the amount of strontium required is well within normal ship stores. Blink

Vincent Athena wrote:
Tubrug1 wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


But Bastion Mode doesn't require strontium.

As its not fully energized, it does not get used up like in a POS. Hence it just gets recycled in a process unnoticeable to the ship's pilot. Sort of like how fuel for ship propulsion and power never need be worried about, its all handled behind the scenes.

This too!

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Tubrug1
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-11-12 19:37:29 UTC
Ah! I have been enlightened by your knowledge!

Writer of The Eve Onion

I have a Twitter
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-11-12 19:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Member of the Goonswarm Lore Warfare Cabal? Big smile
Montami
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#11 - 2013-11-12 20:13:54 UTC
That was really gay Mynna.
Draazz
Engineering Group Alpha
#12 - 2013-11-12 20:19:47 UTC
I guess I'm too naive to see how this could be exploited, but I'll just go ahead and take your word for it! Thanks for the answer.



Regarding the Strontium Clatherates theory, this is an excerpt from the manual that came with my Bastion Module (yes, I read manuals...)

<...> Through a series of electromagnetic polarity field shifts, the bastion module diverts energy from the ship's propulsion and warp systems to lend additional power to its defensive capabilities.

This results in a greatly increased rate of defensive self-sustenance and a boost to the ship's overall damage resistances. <...>

Furthermore, how would you nano-atomize Strontium Clatherates? If you'd atomize it into particles smaller than Atoms, you're basically using fission, which by its very definition leaves you with different elements. Same goes for 'catalyzed'. This suggests a chemical reaction which would also leave you with different chemicals.

Strontium Clatherate is merely being atomized, excited through electromagnetic polarity field shifts (basically using a microwave) using all the energy from your power core. It is then pumped through your defensive systems where it transfers all the energy. Once it has lost it's superfluous energy, it reverts to it's original state. It can then be excited again. This is a closed system, much like the old refrigerators used to have. Rumors of these systems leaking radiation into the ship are therefore completely unfounded.

A POS uses a separate reactor to achieve invulnerability, which use Strontium Clatherates as fuel. The resulting toxic waste is then vented into space.
stoicfaux
#13 - 2013-11-12 20:30:40 UTC
Draazz wrote:
Furthermore, how would you nano-atomize Strontium Clatherates? If you'd atomize it into particles smaller than Atoms, you're basically using fission, which by its very definition leaves you with different elements. Same goes for 'catalyzed'. This suggests a chemical reaction which would also leave you with different chemicals.

Reduce the Planck constant in a localized area to make the atoms "smaller" compared to normal space.


Quote:
Strontium Clatherate is merely being atomized, excited through electromagnetic polarity field shifts (basically using a microwave) using all the energy from your power core. It is then pumped through your defensive systems where it transfers all the energy. Once it has lost it's superfluous energy, it reverts to it's original state. It can then be excited again. This is a closed system, much like the old refrigerators used to have. Rumors of these systems leaking radiation into the ship are therefore completely unfounded.

Again, smaller Planck constant means more electrons per unit of distance and more electrons means more energy over time. It's like data-compression where you squeeze more data (electrons) into a finite storage (or transmission) medium and then unpack the data (electrons) to get more energy over time.

/super-science101

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#14 - 2013-11-12 21:22:59 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


Dat lore.

On the other hand, why not fry me and my crew? The crew is replaceable with isk and I have clones... Lol
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-11-12 21:32:16 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


Dat lore.

On the other hand, why not fry me and my crew? The crew is replaceable with isk and I have clones... Lol


Your cloning unit only really triggers in response to the outer hull of the capsule being cracked. The burst of radiation would could you without it ever triggering. P

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-11-12 21:38:51 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Your cloning unit only really triggers in response to the outer hull of the capsule being cracked. The burst of radiation would could you without it ever triggering. P

Hmmm something like this could surely be weaponized against enemy ships, or at least exposed capsules in space.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#17 - 2013-11-12 21:58:39 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Bastion Mode reinforces your tank by pumping nano-atomized Strontium Clatherates through the relevant modules, after running it through a process where it's excited and catalyzed, thus boosting your defenses. It's a process similar to how POS shields are rendered invulnerable. However, the stuff is immensely toxic and radioactive, and so standard automated docking protocols prevent you from entering the confines of a station until it's dispersed.

Incidentally, that's why you can't achieve total invulnerability, too. While it's no concern with a POS tower, the exposure within a ship would fry you and your crew, and besides that, the equipment to excite it enough is too large to fit in a battleship hull anyway.


P


Why dont they require stront then?
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#18 - 2013-11-12 23:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Hello CCP. You're batshit insane. kbai

No really, you're actually mechanically denying real against-the-odds PvPers from jumping these into gatecamps, and a) moving back to gate while having any EHP & active tank worth a damn, b) now even dropping aggro while tanking??! You really won't let a Kronos/Vargur do this, won't let people upgrade from Hypes & Maelstroms? Ships that people will almost never actually give half a chance to keep a lock or cap level with, because they're actually useful in their tiny niche against a few ships, yet putting a 1bil T2 hull on the line might be the factor to persuade people to roll the dice and go for it. Now pvpers wanting to attempt to get that fight have to try coast the distance and tank the damage without any Bastion bonuses?

Why do you hate battleships so much? Terrible scan res, hard to apply damage, soon-to-be hugely worse travel speed(why couldn't smaller stuff simply be faster, with BSs as the unchanged base), still no good cards-on-the-table T2 version. Why? Sad

P.S. Isn't this weapon timer bullshit going to make highsec PvE get-RR-within-1minute-out-of-cycle unviable too, or is the Suspect flag purely tied to assisting a player with a capsuleer timer?

P.P.S. I mean, it's not like these ships won't get an aggro timer from shooting people if they're actually used to shoot people, or did you forget that?! Why the hell isn't that enough for 'docking games' prevention as it is for all other BSs? Again Hype and Mael come to mind here, as well as those triple XL ASB navy scorps and rattlesnakes of capless loltank. Or a 500k EHP Slaved Navy Mega or something.
Do any of you even use BSs in the modern day at a scale where a few k dps tank would even keep you alive? Even though you're being ECMd, damped, neuted and nado'd to hell about 20seconds after appearing on dscan?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#19 - 2013-11-13 00:07:56 UTC
Quote:
No really, you're actually mechanically denying real against-the-odds PvPers from jumping these into gatecamps, and a) moving back to gate while having any EHP & active tank worth a damn, b) now even dropping aggro while tanking??! You really won't let a Kronos/Vargur do this, won't let people upgrade from Hypes & Maelstroms? Ships that people will almost never actually give half a chance to keep a lock or cap level with, because they're actually useful in their tiny niche against a few ships, yet putting a 1bil T2 hull on the line might be the factor to persuade people to roll the dice and go for it. Now pvpers wanting to attempt to get that fight have to try coast the distance and tank the damage without any Bastion bonuses?


If battleships need help, then that help should come in the form of something that helps them win fights. The more game mechanics that encourage tanking out a timer + docking up/jumping, the more that you need a blob's worth of DPS to kill anything.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#20 - 2013-11-13 00:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Kahega Amielden wrote:
If battleships need help, then that help should come in the form of something that helps them win fights. The more game mechanics that encourage tanking out a timer + docking up/jumping, the more that you need a blob's worth of DPS to kill anything.
Oh but you don't.

To kill these, one need only undock the totally-not-terrible recent 'balance' baby that is the neut geddon (wouldn't want people to risk being in unlinked point range now, would we). Coupled with a damp maulus of +5 OP, the usual BS victim can't do **** to them even if you could tank.

For the marauder to be of use, again having to become dead stationary to tank, and somehow overcome the neut thread, it now has to find some retards that won't simply warp off when they find a BS that can still get a lock on them, but can't move 0.1m/s to keep tackle.

This just pushes the Marauders to blob to have enough alpha to clear all the common support ships at range.

Why not just delete Marauders, or leave them broken in the corner? Why bother with this charade??
12Next page