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Interdictors, Bubbles and Aggro

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Author
Heinky
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-11-05 15:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Heinky
TinkerHell wrote:
Interdictor bubbles should cause aggro, this current state is stupid.

Tonight i jumped a gang of capitals to a Gallente station, a flycatcher then undocked and dropped a bubble on us, we couldnt warp in the bubble to cause it aggression, so it just docked, waited a bit and dropped another bubble. We had no choice but to slowboat the carrier fleet 35km to get out of range of the dictor undocking and slowboating with invul and then dropping the bubble and docking.

Yesterday we had 2 of our carriers tackled on a gate by a long range sniper gang, that had 2 sabres and 2 Arazus. The arazus were no problem we could shoot them and push the points off field, the sabres however, not so much, they could jump in, mwd cloak, bubble and jump back out of system. Our carriers were stuck for over an hour by two ships that didnt even get aggression.

Last week, we dropped dreads on a gate and sieged. The enemy gang responded by running back home keeping the gang docked and sending 6 interdictors back to the dreads, and using the same tactic of mwd/cloak/uncloak/bubble jump. We managed to slowboat the dreads out of the bubbles which took 30 minutes before their batphone arrived.

To me this all seems a bit wrong? Why should a ship have such an effect without even getting aggression? The only counter i have at my disposal that i can see is smartbombs, but i cant smartbomb bubbles on a station so they are useless to me there. So basically if a dictor wants to waste 30minutes of my life with no risk they can.



It is wrong that you drop capitals as solo pwn mobiles on gates without support to kill supcap fleets or ships. Capitals are meant to be fleet and support ships. Go home with your elitism pvp and get some friends in support ships.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#22 - 2013-11-05 16:22:14 UTC
Support
Support
Support


You sir are text master

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#23 - 2013-11-05 16:46:21 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Interdictor bubbles should cause aggro, this current state is stupid.

Tonight i jumped a gang of capitals to a Gallente station, a flycatcher then undocked and dropped a bubble on us, we couldnt warp in the bubble to cause it aggression, so it just docked, waited a bit and dropped another bubble. We had no choice but to slowboat the carrier fleet 35km to get out of range of the dictor undocking and slowboating with invul and then dropping the bubble and docking.

Yesterday we had 2 of our carriers tackled on a gate by a long range sniper gang, that had 2 sabres and 2 Arazus. The arazus were no problem we could shoot them and push the points off field, the sabres however, not so much, they could jump in, mwd cloak, bubble and jump back out of system. Our carriers were stuck for over an hour by two ships that didnt even get aggression.

Last week, we dropped dreads on a gate and sieged. The enemy gang responded by running back home keeping the gang docked and sending 6 interdictors back to the dreads, and using the same tactic of mwd/cloak/uncloak/bubble jump. We managed to slowboat the dreads out of the bubbles which took 30 minutes before their batphone arrived.

To me this all seems a bit wrong? Why should a ship have such an effect without even getting aggression? The only counter i have at my disposal that i can see is smartbombs, but i cant smartbomb bubbles on a station so they are useless to me there. So basically if a dictor wants to waste 30minutes of my life with no risk they can.


I feel your pain, however you need to consider that interdictors are meant to be ultimate pwnmobiles and better than other forms of tackle so your arguments are invalid.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE

TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#24 - 2013-11-05 18:31:39 UTC
Heinky wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:
Interdictor bubbles should cause aggro, this current state is stupid.

Tonight i jumped a gang of capitals to a Gallente station, a flycatcher then undocked and dropped a bubble on us, we couldnt warp in the bubble to cause it aggression, so it just docked, waited a bit and dropped another bubble. We had no choice but to slowboat the carrier fleet 35km to get out of range of the dictor undocking and slowboating with invul and then dropping the bubble and docking.

Yesterday we had 2 of our carriers tackled on a gate by a long range sniper gang, that had 2 sabres and 2 Arazus. The arazus were no problem we could shoot them and push the points off field, the sabres however, not so much, they could jump in, mwd cloak, bubble and jump back out of system. Our carriers were stuck for over an hour by two ships that didnt even get aggression.

Last week, we dropped dreads on a gate and sieged. The enemy gang responded by running back home keeping the gang docked and sending 6 interdictors back to the dreads, and using the same tactic of mwd/cloak/uncloak/bubble jump. We managed to slowboat the dreads out of the bubbles which took 30 minutes before their batphone arrived.

To me this all seems a bit wrong? Why should a ship have such an effect without even getting aggression? The only counter i have at my disposal that i can see is smartbombs, but i cant smartbomb bubbles on a station so they are useless to me there. So basically if a dictor wants to waste 30minutes of my life with no risk they can.



It is wrong that you drop capitals as solo pwn mobiles on gates without support to kill supcap fleets or ships. Capitals are meant to be fleet and support ships. Go home with your elitism pvp and get some friends in support ships.


Please tell me where i said i had no support? I said none of the ships on field can even lock the interdictors. due to a combination of no aggro and cloak/mwd trick.

Go cry about getting hotdropped somewhere else.
Korg Leaf
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-11-05 18:32:39 UTC
Heinky wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:
Interdictor bubbles should cause aggro, this current state is stupid.

Tonight i jumped a gang of capitals to a Gallente station, a flycatcher then undocked and dropped a bubble on us, we couldnt warp in the bubble to cause it aggression, so it just docked, waited a bit and dropped another bubble. We had no choice but to slowboat the carrier fleet 35km to get out of range of the dictor undocking and slowboating with invul and then dropping the bubble and docking.

Yesterday we had 2 of our carriers tackled on a gate by a long range sniper gang, that had 2 sabres and 2 Arazus. The arazus were no problem we could shoot them and push the points off field, the sabres however, not so much, they could jump in, mwd cloak, bubble and jump back out of system. Our carriers were stuck for over an hour by two ships that didnt even get aggression.

Last week, we dropped dreads on a gate and sieged. The enemy gang responded by running back home keeping the gang docked and sending 6 interdictors back to the dreads, and using the same tactic of mwd/cloak/uncloak/bubble jump. We managed to slowboat the dreads out of the bubbles which took 30 minutes before their batphone arrived.

To me this all seems a bit wrong? Why should a ship have such an effect without even getting aggression? The only counter i have at my disposal that i can see is smartbombs, but i cant smartbomb bubbles on a station so they are useless to me there. So basically if a dictor wants to waste 30minutes of my life with no risk they can.



It is wrong that you drop capitals as solo pwn mobiles on gates without support to kill supcap fleets or ships. Capitals are meant to be fleet and support ships. Go home with your elitism pvp and get some friends in support ships.


The problem isn't support, we quite often have support, you can't lock a ship that can instantly redock or is on gate and just jumps through.
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#26 - 2013-11-05 18:45:26 UTC
Also i would like to point out that Capital ships are used as the example as they are ships that are slow and therefore cant burn out of a bubble easily.

If im in a Vagabond ill just leave, it still doesnt mean there isnt a problem that the dictor still is not taking aggro.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#27 - 2013-11-05 19:45:42 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Also i would like to point out that Capital ships are used as the example as they are ships that are slow and therefore cant burn out of a bubble easily.

If im in a Vagabond ill just leave, it still doesnt mean there isnt a problem that the dictor still is not taking aggro.


your text make it seem like the situations that were described were put together theoretically and not a product of actually having those assets in those situations, which makes me wonder about the legitimacy of your concerns.
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#28 - 2013-11-05 19:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: TinkerHell
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:
Also i would like to point out that Capital ships are used as the example as they are ships that are slow and therefore cant burn out of a bubble easily.

If im in a Vagabond ill just leave, it still doesnt mean there isnt a problem that the dictor still is not taking aggro.


your text make it seem like the situations that were described were put together theoretically and not a product of actually having those assets in those situations, which makes me wonder about the legitimacy of your concerns.



Please check my killboard and corp killboard, these are ingame events over the last week. I used the capital examples from the last week as this is where dictors are most broken in these situations. I gave ingame events as examples and you say its theory. Yet i even say in the op yesterday and last week, why would i say that of its theory lol.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#29 - 2013-11-05 22:55:29 UTC

I've used dictors on a gate to hold capitals down, as well as dictors on a station to inhibit logistics.

In my opinion, dropping a bubble should NOT cause a weapons nor PvP timer.
However, if someone is inhibited from warping because of your hictor/dictor bubble, you absolutely should receive a weapons and PvP timer.

It gets pretty silly when I can undock, drop a bubble, redock. Undock, drop a bubble, redock.

Thankfully, those of us familiar with game mechanics will simply drop a bomb via stealth bomber to clear the bubbles and then cyno out.

TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#30 - 2013-11-05 23:03:39 UTC
Launching a bomb counters the bubble, the bomb also has a longer cycle time. However this still doesnt counter the dictor itself that can just come back and place another. The dictor still has no aggro, which is the problem...Currently im going to have to field an entire ship to counter a single mod rather than a ship..
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#31 - 2013-11-06 00:40:03 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Launching a bomb counters the bubble, the bomb also has a longer cycle time. However this still doesnt counter the dictor itself that can just come back and place another. The dictor still has no aggro, which is the problem...Currently im going to have to field an entire ship to counter a single mod rather than a ship..


A single bomb can counter many dictors.... popping all of their bubbles at once. This might only by you a small window before they rebubble, but if you are weary this gives you the window you need.

Furthermore, an insta-locking Arty ship can sometimes blap a dictor before it re-docks/jumps.

Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-11-06 03:15:39 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
TinkerHell wrote:
Also i would like to point out that Capital ships are used as the example as they are ships that are slow and therefore cant burn out of a bubble easily.

If im in a Vagabond ill just leave, it still doesnt mean there isnt a problem that the dictor still is not taking aggro.


your text make it seem like the situations that were described were put together theoretically and not a product of actually having those assets in those situations, which makes me wonder about the legitimacy of your concerns.

The argument would be legit either way, as long as interdictors were able to act as Tinker describes (they are)
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I've used dictors on a gate to hold capitals down, as well as dictors on a station to inhibit logistics.

In my opinion, dropping a bubble should NOT cause a weapons nor PvP timer.
However, if someone is inhibited from warping because of your hictor/dictor bubble, you absolutely should receive a weapons and PvP timer.

It gets pretty silly when I can undock, drop a bubble, redock. Undock, drop a bubble, redock.

Thankfully, those of us familiar with game mechanics will simply drop a bomb via stealth bomber to clear the bubbles and then cyno out.

A single bomb can counter many dictors.... popping all of their bubbles at once. This might only by you a small window before they rebubble, but if you are weary this gives you the window you need.

Furthermore, an insta-locking Arty ship can sometimes blap a dictor before it re-docks/jumps.


The fact that players can mitigate negative consequences of a broken mechanic does not address the issue of a ship being able to negatively/positively affect others in a combat situation and then immediately escape, something the new Crimewatch mechanics were designed to prevent and something that EVE should not include.

A weapons timer from players trying to warp out from a bubble means that the interdictor can still negatively affect players with the bubble and then leave, as long as there's a period before someone attempts a warp. Also, this extends the amount of time a fleet has to wait up for an interdictor pilot to lose the weapons timer, since someone may attempt to warp at the end of the bubble's life, meaning the dictor has to wait for the bubble to vanish and then sixty seconds more. Giving a weapons timer when the bubble is launched means the dictor does suffer being at risk for a time if they choose to attempt to affect other players in combat, but that they also have a good chance of being able to keep up with a fleet.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-11-06 03:20:26 UTC
Saying "bubbles should only cause aggro when someone tries to warp" is like saying "benny's tornado shouldn't be shot by station guns unless he scores a hit on that frigate"
Sir Scarecrow
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2013-11-06 23:55:58 UTC
I think you are missing the point of someone needing to try to warp in the bubble or someone being pulled out of warp to start the weapons timer. Because if I was to drop a bubble on a station and no one but I was in system should that give weapons timer? Or if I was 100km off a gate and only one in system. That is where there needs to be something to cause the weapons timer.

as you were stating that about shooting at frig and missing. As you can't just point your ship in a random direction and fire turret weapons....
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-11-07 03:42:23 UTC
Sir Scarecrow wrote:
I think you are missing the point of someone needing to try to warp in the bubble or someone being pulled out of warp to start the weapons timer. Because if I was to drop a bubble on a station and no one but I was in system should that give weapons timer? Or if I was 100km off a gate and only one in system. That is where there needs to be something to cause the weapons timer.

as you were stating that about shooting at frig and missing. As you can't just point your ship in a random direction and fire turret weapons....

Yes. If you drop a bubble on station and noone was in system, that should give a weapons timer. Because you can drop a bubble on a gate and jump immediately, and the bubble will effect anyone who jumps in. Hictors still get a weapons timer when they activate their warp disruption field, don't they?

OK, let me sit a smartbombing BS on a gate with smartbombs cycling, but no weapons timer until I hit something that's not a gate. No, if I do an aggressive act, I should gain a weapons timer
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#36 - 2013-11-12 15:13:52 UTC
Still getting griefed by deaggroed dictors lol :(

We have to base our capitals out of lowsec instead of 0.0 non sov space because of this :(
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#37 - 2013-11-12 15:39:58 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Still getting griefed by deaggroed dictors lol :(

We have to base our capitals out of lowsec instead of 0.0 non sov space because of this :(

Then report them for griefing / mechanic abuse / exploit and see what GMs have to say about this issue.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#38 - 2013-11-12 20:47:40 UTC
As this is a discussion about a perceived problem in-game, this thread has been moved to Assembly Hall.
Please continue the discussion in a civil manner.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#39 - 2013-11-12 23:31:47 UTC
ISD Ezwal wrote:
As this is a discussion about a perceived problem in-game, this thread has been moved to Assembly Hall.
Please continue the discussion in a civil manner.


thank you :)
Homem na Estrada
#40 - 2013-11-13 15:04:39 UTC
Because CCP never put mechanics in place that are intended to help one thing and serve to be abused in five other ways.

They should use a unique rule for aggression applied to everything: If it affects another ship, it is aggression, it doesnt matter how that impacts on the ship. If you want to have your interdictors in place, be mindful of where and when you deploy. If you deployed something potentially affecting yourself negativelly, that should be taken into consideration.

That is the kind of wishful thinking that dominates parts of development and things are done to be "nice" for one reason and become nasty loopholes for five other reasons.

But I also know that it is nothing that cant be avoided by simply planning ahead. As much as it is a broken mechanics, it is also not impossible to counter, just require what no one out of industrial and covert game like to do: Plan and scout when you move, specially heavy slow ships.

Bubbles and non-cloaked "bubblers" show in DSCan, so you can have an idea if there is one in place, and more or less, where it is. As I recall, that may be the case for low and null sec, therefore, the places where by default you should be careful and use the instruments the ship give you. Maybe WH life made me paranoid and I cant live without Dscan and Covert/Black Ops scouts, but it is not a bad thing at all, specially when you are travelling around with a billion ISK ship.

You want to see how people is careless around ? Drop a bubble, say, in the low sec between the hisec island in placid. You see people in industrials and freighters blobing up on a bubble just because it is placed on their route. Most of the time you see the SAME person there over and over again.

Warping in auto pilot or just gate bridging in low sec is like AFK mining, you just shouldnt do, or live with the consequences whatever they may be. In hisec, which that sort of thing matters, you cant use those.

There are two powers: Power of Numbers and Power of Leadership They compensate or add to each other, but nothing compensates or add to having neither. Politics: If you dont use it, it will use you.

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