Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Oh wait, were you serious?

Rise doesn't like you, that's why.

5s to reload hybrid instead of 10s change lot of things.

Perharps 30s af reloading time instead 40s would be good.

I would like to try to see...

I would probably kill more fregates and destroyers with this version than with the old version. So it is exactly what I want to engage with my RLML Caracal. Of course it is clear that in solo fight I will not be able to kill a cruiser or a BC before being out of ammo.
But with a little help of my friends I will just **** them so quickly...

If I want to engage Cruisers or BC, I will put HM or HAM on my caracal.

It will be matter of choice.

30s of reloading time and 2 to 5 ammo in the magagazine should be enough to make it great.

If the charges are increased, the effect on the time is largely diminished, because you had enough damage to "Do something" before going inactive.

The exact numbers are hard to calculate and must be a combination of objective and subjective values.

Run your numbers. If each of those algoses were a caracal with tne new rapid launchers we would have needed how many reloads of our ammo to kill those targets? Hint... would result in a far far longer fight. And less fun.

Noone thinks RLMLs should be the go-to weapon system for everything at all. People are trying to prevent the last useful medium missile system from being nerfed into oblivion. It is heavy missiles that have been nerfed way too severely and are in sore need of a buff to become useful again.
Also, 18 charges are hardly enough to kill more than maybe one competent frigate before you have to warp off (and then get tackled by an inty that undocked next door while you're still reloading).

The main problem with this change is actually that it has been announced way too shortly before the patch and is unlikely to even hit singularity in time for proper testing. This, in combination with CCP Rise being ignorant and regarding any kind of feedback as confirming him means that this will probably get pushed through to Tranquility despite the 47 pages of overwhelmingly negative feedback in this thread.

If anything, light missiles could use a very slight nerf, but they really only seem overpowered because heavy missiles are so incredibly useless.

Caracal blobs anyone???
Because thats whats gonna happen....
50 Caracals at 80k range that do over 400 dps.....
and who cares about reload time if you have a blob?

Caracal blobs were already OP, now with this change Caracals will bloth out the sun.

So NO, dont change dps and or reload times, its a bad idea....

Another thing I'd like to add is, where on the forum is there pages of screaming from people talking about RLML being overpowered and deadly? I don't see it. They are entirely situational, and a cruiser fitted this way is completely vulnerable to e-war, gangs, decent tanked frigates, and best of all - any other freaking cruiser basically.

When you take out a Caracal with RLML solo, frankly, you don't expect to bring it home and equally, the amount of ships they can actually kill is entirely dependent on fittings and circumstance.

If you fit a buffer tank to survive a small gang of frigates (About 2-4 typically, past that you're in trouble) then you have to typically fit at least one if not two shield extenders, improve the resistance holes. So that is 2 - 3 slots given up.

Then you add in disruptor, which gives you the range, but means ships can burn away - or a scram and hope you get them close

One slot left. Well, if you want to catch frigates in say, faction warfare entrances - you're going to need a sensor booster and some luck, that they don't activate the gate immediately. You will catch destroyers. But without a MWD, they will be able to burn away before you can kill them, unless you use a scram.

As its a cruiser it can't even get inside the small complex's, so that protects most frigates off the bat.

If you give up some tank for a MWD, then you have speed but no where near as fast as a frigate with a MWD and now its buffer is dramatically reduced, limiting its ability to fight more than two targets typically.

If you want a web etc or target painter, you're going to have to compromise on tank, speed or targeting. It is always going to be a choice and sometimes that works sometimes it doesn't.

Regardless, the ship is vulnerable to engaged combat as its tank diminishes, and it doesn't have the DPS to kill a well tanked frigate in time.

It is entirely vulnerable to many frigates:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16313944

And equally entirely vulnerable to a cruiser fit with medium weapons and is large enough to be caught easily while travelling gate to gate:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15942107

And against to many frigates, it will always go down, often without any kill in return.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15865874

Now there are occasions when it can go well:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15939832

This fight also involved a pair of RLML Caracals, landing outside a Faction Warfare plex. We landed on the Harpy and managed to overload his solid tank. There are also two other enemy Talwars sitting at range, not seen here, because they didn't die. I was fitted with a double shield extender, and the fight was a race against time before it ran out. We were taking down the Wolf when in landed the logistics frigate in support, and repped it back up, so we had to switch targets and pummel that instead. All this time, my tank is going down. In the end, the Wolf almost got away - our last volley killed it, and in return I would have died to the next missile volley from the last on-field Talwar. I warped off in 2% structure. That was a fun fight. But it was entirely dependent on them engaging us, they all could have warped off.

That fight that would be impossible with the new RLML mechanics you are proposing, because for 60% of it, we wouldn't even be shooting. We'd just have killed the first ship we landed on, and had no chance against the others, not with their logistics ship on the field.

In short, RLML and the Caracal are fine. They are entirely vulnerable and come with their own set of risk / rewards.

In all honesty, the Talwar is typically more fun and effective than the RLML Caracal. It is faster, can enter small complex's, can catch frigates easier, and achieves solid DPS with its missiles, while having the ability to kite and disengage if need be, something the Caracal cannot.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16317519

If you introduce these changes, the RLML Caracal is dead and basically, confined to one vs one frigate action. In other words, utterly useless and not worth spending the ISK on.

is it just me, or am I seeing a never ending balance cycle taking place...

Teiricide the ships and balance them out... then balance modules then turn around and have to rebalance the ships because of changes in modules then have to turn around and rebalance modules........ rinse and repeat.....

why not just look at the entire missile combat as a whole and start there... balance modules and ships that use that weapon system as primary....

just stop with all these changes to missile combat and start from the beginning again...

determine the base line... what you ,.. the game designers want... and do it...

I think the players for the most part would rather wait a few more months and have a fully useful system instead of this mish mash we got now....

Sure we can, you're encouraging blob warfare and discouraging solo and tiny gangs.