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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#901 - 2013-11-11 21:57:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
Even if the caracal does not have a rof bonus to standard launchers the new rlms still put you in a position where you can't actually adapt to any changing situation at all. Standard launchers are still able to do this, but ultimately outside of edge case scenarios where you are against only one or two people the caracal is pushed further into obsoletion in terms of solo and small gang pvp viability when compared to other ships of its class.

Cerb and scyfi still remain semi viable for solo and small gang being forced to use standard launchers in order to adapt to changes in a fight. Hmls and hams are still nearly worthless because in solo and small gang you don't normally have the ability to apply their damage. This puts other ships such as the omen and thorax so far ahead of it in terms of viability for solo and small gang that the caracal has no real use. Besides, instead of taking a ship designed solely to allow the caracal to apply it's damage, I can take an omen or thorax and then take another omen or thorax and achieve double the result of hml or ham caracal+application ship.

Between locus rigs and frentix/drop the omen and thorax are able to hit out to linked pointrange which is more than enough to deal with tackle. Pulse omen gets less range then rail thorax however scorch and locus rigs/frentix fix this problem easily. Not to mention the navy omen and it's build in range bonus netting you around 40-50k with scorch if shield fit.

You are comparing a ship with 60km range able to apply 75% of its dps to most frigates with two ship with 25km range which will be happy ot apply half their dps to frigates in this range. There is a huge difference.

Though I don't deny that this mechanic, preventing to react to change of the battlefield, might make RLML a niche weapon. But I think this is a good thing and the intended goal : that way RLML are not better than medium size missile launchers and destroyers altogether.

Keeping something OP because the alternative is not good enough is not the solution. I personaly think HAM and HML don't look that bad considering their respective range but nothing prevent buffing them a bit if they are really in need of some love.



Destroyers can hit frigs just fine, they just don't have a tank decent enough to hold up, hence why the caracal/thorax/omen get used instead.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#902 - 2013-11-11 22:07:44 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
Even if the caracal does not have a rof bonus to standard launchers the new rlms still put you in a position where you can't actually adapt to any changing situation at all. Standard launchers are still able to do this, but ultimately outside of edge case scenarios where you are against only one or two people the caracal is pushed further into obsoletion in terms of solo and small gang pvp viability when compared to other ships of its class.

Cerb and scyfi still remain semi viable for solo and small gang being forced to use standard launchers in order to adapt to changes in a fight. Hmls and hams are still nearly worthless because in solo and small gang you don't normally have the ability to apply their damage. This puts other ships such as the omen and thorax so far ahead of it in terms of viability for solo and small gang that the caracal has no real use. Besides, instead of taking a ship designed solely to allow the caracal to apply it's damage, I can take an omen or thorax and then take another omen or thorax and achieve double the result of hml or ham caracal+application ship.

Between locus rigs and frentix/drop the omen and thorax are able to hit out to linked pointrange which is more than enough to deal with tackle. Pulse omen gets less range then rail thorax however scorch and locus rigs/frentix fix this problem easily. Not to mention the navy omen and it's build in range bonus netting you around 40-50k with scorch if shield fit.

You are comparing a ship with 60km range able to apply 75% of its dps to most frigates with two ship with 25km range which will be happy ot apply half their dps to frigates in this range. There is a huge difference.

Though I don't deny that this mechanic, preventing to react to change of the battlefield, might make RLML a niche weapon. But I think this is a good thing and the intended goal : that way RLML are not better than medium size missile launchers and destroyers altogether.

Keeping something OP because the alternative is not good enough is not the solution. I personaly think HAM and HML don't look that bad considering their respective range but nothing prevent buffing them a bit if they are really in need of some love.



Destroyers can hit frigs just fine, they just don't have a tank decent enough to hold up, hence why the caracal/thorax/omen get used instead.


Pretty much this:

Destroyers are slower than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less projection than T1 cruisers
Destroyers do less DPS than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less EHP / tank than T1 cruisers

Why would you ever fly them? Their speed to sig ratio is just so bad- they get blapped by pretty much everything.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#903 - 2013-11-11 22:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mhari Dson
Chessur wrote:
Mhari Dson wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Viceorvirtue wrote:
Even if the caracal does not have a rof bonus to standard launchers the new rlms still put you in a position where you can't actually adapt to any changing situation at all. Standard launchers are still able to do this, but ultimately outside of edge case scenarios where you are against only one or two people the caracal is pushed further into obsoletion in terms of solo and small gang pvp viability when compared to other ships of its class.

Cerb and scyfi still remain semi viable for solo and small gang being forced to use standard launchers in order to adapt to changes in a fight. Hmls and hams are still nearly worthless because in solo and small gang you don't normally have the ability to apply their damage. This puts other ships such as the omen and thorax so far ahead of it in terms of viability for solo and small gang that the caracal has no real use. Besides, instead of taking a ship designed solely to allow the caracal to apply it's damage, I can take an omen or thorax and then take another omen or thorax and achieve double the result of hml or ham caracal+application ship.

Between locus rigs and frentix/drop the omen and thorax are able to hit out to linked pointrange which is more than enough to deal with tackle. Pulse omen gets less range then rail thorax however scorch and locus rigs/frentix fix this problem easily. Not to mention the navy omen and it's build in range bonus netting you around 40-50k with scorch if shield fit.

You are comparing a ship with 60km range able to apply 75% of its dps to most frigates with two ship with 25km range which will be happy ot apply half their dps to frigates in this range. There is a huge difference.

Though I don't deny that this mechanic, preventing to react to change of the battlefield, might make RLML a niche weapon. But I think this is a good thing and the intended goal : that way RLML are not better than medium size missile launchers and destroyers altogether.

Keeping something OP because the alternative is not good enough is not the solution. I personaly think HAM and HML don't look that bad considering their respective range but nothing prevent buffing them a bit if they are really in need of some love.



Destroyers can hit frigs just fine, they just don't have a tank decent enough to hold up, hence why the caracal/thorax/omen get used instead.


Pretty much this:

Destroyers are slower than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less projection than T1 cruisers
Destroyers do less DPS than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less EHP / tank than T1 cruisers

Why would you ever fly them? Their speed to sig ratio is just so bad- they get blapped by pretty much everything.



uhm... they make pretty shuttles and decent low SP salvage boats

Oh! almost forgot the instalock thrasher pod blapper that dies if you fart near it.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#904 - 2013-11-11 22:17:35 UTC
So, I'm going to try to provide some constructive feedback.

My problem isn't with the mechanic itself. I think that a weapon system that does very high burst/frontloaded damage in exchange for basically a long cool down during which you can't do anything, coming out to slightly less sustained damage in the long run, is a potentially interesting mechanic that can lead to choices being made during fitting. The mechanic does seem a bit more WoW PvP than EVE PvP (arcane power pyroblast!), but I think it's something that could be cool.

My issue with this proposal is that you aren't allowing users to make that choice of burst vs. sustained in isolation to other choices. You can choose burst AND good damage application, or sustained AND poor damage application. There's no way to separate the two choices.

One of the reasons that RLMLs are so popular is that HMLs and HAMs, unlike medium guns, can be easily avoided by enemy frigates and even mitigated by cruisers. With guns, the user can do things like slingshot an orbiting frigate to reduce their transversal enough to land a hit. Missile users can't do things like that, so they need to fit RLMLs if they want to not be easy pickings for frigates. Less potential damage to same size and larger targets, more potential damage to smaller targets.

Keep RLMLs as they are. Fix HAMs and HMLs so they don't suck. Introduce a new weapon system offering high alpha and long downtime. Maybe call it "artillery."
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#905 - 2013-11-11 22:23:28 UTC
Chessur wrote:


Pretty much this:

Destroyers are slower than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less projection than T1 cruisers
Destroyers do less DPS than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less EHP / tank than T1 cruisers

Why would you ever fly them? Their speed to sig ratio is just so bad- they get blapped by pretty much everything.



Just fit them correclty.....


check this video for example.. after 1:35 Notice that we had 1 stilleto 1 maulus and rest only destroyers.. against cruisers BC and frigates.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#906 - 2013-11-11 23:01:51 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Chessur wrote:


Pretty much this:

Destroyers are slower than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less projection than T1 cruisers
Destroyers do less DPS than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less EHP / tank than T1 cruisers

Why would you ever fly them? Their speed to sig ratio is just so bad- they get blapped by pretty much everything.



Just fit them correclty.....


check this video for example.. after 1:35 Notice that we had 1 stilleto 1 maulus and rest only destroyers.. against cruisers BC and frigates.


I don't see your video link :( As a crazy guss- are you using 10MN AB Destroyers, with links / snakes? Then they can actually sig tank something.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#907 - 2013-11-11 23:10:38 UTC
This reminds me strongly of when the adjustments to Arty were made, before people understood the sheer power of properly applied alpha. Many folks steadfastly insisted that Arty would never be used in game again, as it's reload time and DPS was simply horrible. Smile

The concept of burst damage, done in this fashion, is also extremely powerful if applied correctly. It's a small gangs wet dream, and a gankers vision of perfection. Vessels that rely on speed, or rapidly warping in and out, to control the situation will find them a nearly ideal weapons system.

On the other hand, people that don't understand how to apply their strengths will throw up their hands in disgust.

After a bit of tweaking it won't take long for this to become a well accepted combat mechanic.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#908 - 2013-11-11 23:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
Ranger 1 wrote:
This reminds me strongly of when the adjustments to Arty were made, before people understood the sheer power of properly applied alpha. Many folks steadfastly insisted that Arty would never be used in game again, as it's reload time and DPS was simply horrible. Smile

The concept of burst damage, done in this fashion, is also extremely powerful if applied correctly. It's a small gangs wet dream, and a gankers vision of perfection. Vessels that rely on speed, or rapidly warping in and out, to control the situation will find them a nearly ideal weapons system.

On the other hand, people that don't understand how to apply their strengths will throw up their hands in disgust.

After a bit of tweaking it won't take long for this to become a well accepted combat mechanic.


the problem is, we already have artillery for that, why not keep RLML as they are for now and introduce a new module (later on) for missiles similar to artillery if they choose to stick with this idea..

Also you have to consider that 40 secs reload time is EXTREMELY infuriating as gameplay and adds no strategic depths because the ship will only have one role and one role only, blap > gtfo/ or wait 40 secs, sure...

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#909 - 2013-11-11 23:37:55 UTC
This is an entirely different mechanic than artillery. The polarizes rlms into being either borderline op by killing frigates twice as fast to being completely useless when reloading or if caught with a low clip, or in a situation where you are using the wrong ammo.

Imagine you are firing on a cruiser. As you run low on ammo a frigate lands on field and starts burning for you. If it tackles you the cruiser you are shooting at will be able to get on top of you and kill you. You do not have enough ammo to kill the frigate or the cruiser without reloading.

An omen obviously does not have this problem as it can just shoot and kill the frigate. A thorax can reload and kill the frigate before it tackles you. The new rlm caracal has to leave immediately or die because it has to wait 40 seconds before being able to respond to this new situation. During this time it will have been tackled by the frigate and the enemy cruiser would have likely torn it to shreds.

This is not 'interesting' or 'tense' gameplay, this is a terrible terrible idea. Sure with enough people rlm burst might be viable but by then you can drop 1 guy to fly an application ship and use hmls or hams for more damage instead. If you are flying as antitackle in a gang there becomes no reason to have rlm because you will likely need to adapt to a changing situation at some point and the new rlms will be unable to do so.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#910 - 2013-11-11 23:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Chessur wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Chessur wrote:


Pretty much this:

Destroyers are slower than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less projection than T1 cruisers
Destroyers do less DPS than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less EHP / tank than T1 cruisers

Why would you ever fly them? Their speed to sig ratio is just so bad- they get blapped by pretty much everything.



Just fit them correclty.....


check this video for example.. after 1:35 Notice that we had 1 stilleto 1 maulus and rest only destroyers.. against cruisers BC and frigates.


I don't see your video link :( As a crazy guss- are you using 10MN AB Destroyers, with links / snakes? Then they can actually sig tank something.


Sorry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4VSukE8lZs

Yup that is basically what we do. Just poiting that some ships can be effective even when peopel do not beleive in them.

But these new rapid laucnhers are so bad that not even us beleive we can do anythign with them

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#911 - 2013-11-11 23:47:53 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
This reminds me strongly of when the adjustments to Arty were made, before people understood the sheer power of properly applied alpha. Many folks steadfastly insisted that Arty would never be used in game again, as it's reload time and DPS was simply horrible. Smile

The concept of burst damage, done in this fashion, is also extremely powerful if applied correctly. It's a small gangs wet dream, and a gankers vision of perfection. Vessels that rely on speed, or rapidly warping in and out, to control the situation will find them a nearly ideal weapons system.

On the other hand, people that don't understand how to apply their strengths will throw up their hands in disgust.

After a bit of tweaking it won't take long for this to become a well accepted combat mechanic.



Cosniderign I was the MAIN advocant of the alpha increase back then and fought every single of those denyers of the alpha. I do understand it. But its completely different. Arties have enough potetntial damage to kill stuff.

THese reapids do nto have ALPHA, you can repair on those seconds it is firing so it cannot brea k RR as alpha can. And also arties do not stay 40 seconds sleeping.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#912 - 2013-11-12 00:10:04 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Chessur wrote:


Pretty much this:

Destroyers are slower than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less projection than T1 cruisers
Destroyers do less DPS than T1 cruisers
Destroyers have less EHP / tank than T1 cruisers

Why would you ever fly them? Their speed to sig ratio is just so bad- they get blapped by pretty much everything.



Just fit them correclty.....


check this video for example.. after 1:35 Notice that we had 1 stilleto 1 maulus and rest only destroyers.. against cruisers BC and frigates.


I don't see your video link :( As a crazy guss- are you using 10MN AB Destroyers, with links / snakes? Then they can actually sig tank something.


Sorry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4VSukE8lZs

Yup that is basically what we do. Just poiting that some ships can be effective even when peopel do not beleive in them.

But these new rapid laucnhers are so bad that not even us beleive we can do anythign with them

You could, your video would just be 100~120 seconds long.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Omega Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#913 - 2013-11-12 02:05:51 UTC
CCP Rise, This new RLML thing......... not cool. You feel me brah?
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#914 - 2013-11-12 03:23:45 UTC
It seems logic.
Overheated, these weapon will be enormous...

But yes , it seems it is the end of solo caracal or cerberus.... But the problem is not these rapid launchers but the heavy and cruise missiles against small targets....
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#915 - 2013-11-12 04:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
it would be great like that:

Reload time for both groups set to 35 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 20 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 25 charges

I think it is not a so bad idea even if it changes our game play, even if it will be impossible to change ammo type during the fight. This changes will give a true identity to the Rapid launchers: Huge dps for a very short ime.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#916 - 2013-11-12 04:50:02 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
it would be great like that:

Reload time for both groups set to 35 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 20 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 25 charges



35 seconds is still garbage.
Sarah Cain
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#917 - 2013-11-12 05:08:43 UTC
I've got to say I love the established RLML the way it is and has been for the last several years. I hope that this weapon system does not change. I do however like the idea of a totally new weapon system intended to unload damage quickly, however this feature is already implemented in game through overheating as mentioned earlier in this small threadnaught. I believe a new weapon system with a normal reload time for changing ammo and such, but a specialization in overheating to give you your frontloaded dps and as such your down time from repairing the modules if you so choose to go that route, would be a better option. I have to say again I prefer the weapon system as it is and has been for the last 8 plus years? I'm not sure how long it's currently fulfilled its roll. I would also like to thank CCP for constantly trying to improve this game (even tho I may not like the changes).

P.S I appologize for my terrible punctuation and spelling.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#918 - 2013-11-12 05:34:39 UTC
RIP: RLML, Caracal...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Edwin McAlister
Empire Hooligans
#919 - 2013-11-12 05:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Edwin McAlister
do these numbers look right for current launchers... this is from actual ingame numbers on Tranq with me and frinds engaging each other .. these are all vs normal ships running MWD and orbiting at about 10km , we did it with MWD on and off, but only looking at the ON numbers, that are NOT TACKLED... Assault frig was a Hawk, Navy Frig was a Hookbill, the 2nd cerb did not have a MWD, it instead had a 10mn AB

did notice that once a frig gets tackled.. did not matter what I was shooting, they went pop really quick like

HAM Cerb (Ham Range = 37 km)
vs Assault frig , Cerb did about 40ish dps
vs Navy frig, Cerb did about 30ish dps
vs another Cerb, the HAM cerb did about 300ish dps

RLML Cerb (RLML Range = 77 km)
vs Assault frig, cerb did about 120ish dps
vs Navy frig, cerb did 140ish dps
vs another Cerb, the RLML Cerb did about 170ish dps

HML Cerb (HML Range = 115 km)
vs Assault frig, cerb did about 80 dps
vs Navy Frig, cerb did about 83 dps
vs another cerb, did about 200ish dps
Ion Blacknight
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#920 - 2013-11-12 06:18:58 UTC
The RLM Caracal is one of the most fun ships to fly in Eve. Why on earth would you want to remove it? I say remove it because what you are proposing to replace it with is a non-starter that will not see a fraction of the use the present RLM Caracal does.

So I repeat : one of the most liked and successful doctrines in Eve and you want to remove it from the game.

Why?

We deserve a clear explanation.

War reports: Blacknight active