Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I would like to see you kill a rupture in 18 volleys.

So rlm should only be able to kill 1 or 2 ships if you are lucky and then be forced to leave no matter what? Also compare this to an omen or thorax who can just shoot and kill the inty when it arrives and never gets caught with the 40 seconds of uselessness. If the origional target has more hp than the caracal can do damage in a single clip and the tackle lands in the middle of the fight the caracal is stuck being unable to kill the tackle before being stuck in a 40 second reload which is a death sentence and unable to finish the cruiser before it gets tackled and dies in a fire before it can finish reloading.

Meanwhile the omen and thorax can just force the tackle off field while still being able to finish off the origional target. This change to rlms just makes the other weapon systems flat out better by comparison and removes any reason to fly a ship with rlms if you expect to be fighting more than 1 opponent. Nobody has to fly an rlm boat since other ships perform just as effectively currently and only train into them because of ease of use and quick training time for the versatility they get. The change will make rlms so sub par that people would rather just not use them at all.

Give Rise time to read 45 pages of discussion

Up until now I've agreed with the things you said, but this time we have to clarify things a bit.

The discussion with the bonuses was around the difference between a RLML Launcher Bonus, or a Missile Damage Bonus.
(Technically I guess there is no "Rapid Light Missile Damage Bonus", as there are no Rapid Light Missiles, only Light Missiles)

It all affects the possibility of fitting normal Light Missile Launchers instead of RLML. This only works on certain ships, namely those with Missile Damage Bonus (such as ScytheFleet, Cerb).

A RLML Caracal does 274 DPS with fury, and a LML Caracal does 142 (also with fury)
A RLML SctheFleet does 239 DPS with fury, and a LML Scythe Fleet does 191.

You may notice the difference in the DPS drop.

So while a LML Cerb or LML ScyFI is somewhat viable after the patch (as it does more sustained DPS as a RLML one), this is not true for Caracals, NOspreys or any other missile cruiser.

I disagree. Hitting a frigate for 200ish dps out past 50km from a tank cruiser is more than reasonable, it is little too good. 500 dps out to 30km is extremely reasonable for HAMs. What is unreasonable is that a rapid light caracal can beat a HAM caracal in almost all situations because the damage application is so poor on HAM and the resource requirements on rapids is so low. I think changing how missiles apply damage (short range is all about actually catching the target, long range is all about sig radius, no or almost no consideration for explosion velocity) the base damage stats would be fine.

Even if the caracal does not have a rof bonus to standard launchers the new rlms still put you in a position where you can't actually adapt to any changing situation at all. Standard launchers are still able to do this, but ultimately outside of edge case scenarios where you are against only one or two people the caracal is pushed further into obsoletion in terms of solo and small gang pvp viability when compared to other ships of its class.

Cerb and scyfi still remain semi viable for solo and small gang being forced to use standard launchers in order to adapt to changes in a fight. Hmls and hams are still nearly worthless because in solo and small gang you don't normally have the ability to apply their damage. This puts other ships such as the omen and thorax so far ahead of it in terms of viability for solo and small gang that the caracal has no real use. Besides, instead of taking a ship designed solely to allow the caracal to apply it's damage, I can take an omen or thorax and then take another omen or thorax and achieve double the result of hml or ham caracal+application ship.

Between locus rigs and frentix/drop the omen and thorax are able to hit out to linked pointrange which is more than enough to deal with tackle. Pulse omen gets less range then rail thorax however scorch and locus rigs/frentix fix this problem easily. Not to mention the navy omen and it's build in range bonus netting you around 40-50k with scorch if shield fit.

You are comparing a ship with 60km range able to apply 75% of its dps to most frigates with two ship with 25km range which will be happy ot apply half their dps to frigates in this range. There is a huge difference.

Though I don't deny that this mechanic, preventing to react to change of the battlefield, might make RLML a niche weapon. But I think this is a good thing and the intended goal : that way RLML are not better than medium size missile launchers and destroyers altogether.

Keeping something OP because the alternative is not good enough is not the solution. I personaly think HAM and HML don't look that bad considering their respective range but nothing prevent buffing them a bit if they are really in need of some love.

So in fights that last under 50 seconds, HMLs and HAMs are both made completely obsolete by the new RLMLs, because they do roughly the same damage as HAMs at obscene range with stunning damage application against things roughly cruiser sized. And their ability to take out reinforcements (and also frigates that can elude most of their damage) is arguably crippled due to the hideously boring 40 second reload time...

I don't know what to think about this. Because these RLMLs literally take all of the best qualities of HMLs and HAMs as far as I can tell from this, blend it together into something that has the potential to be downright horrifying (and again, will make HAMs obsolete, and HMLs even more obsolete than they already are)- and then the only real downside is Torp-style ammo capacity and the aforementioned stupidly long reload time.

I don't quite agree with this. Because it seems that your goal here is to get people to use HMLs and HAMs more.

Have you considered that maybe the problem wasn't that RLMLs were too good, but HMLs and HAMs had too many problems to see a lot of widespread usage? HAMs have really poor damage application and fairly short range. Even against things their own size. HMLs... Your nerf of heavy missiles last year was so heavyhanded that I honestly don't think they'll ever be popular for anything again in their current state. They're just bad. If you fit RLMLs, you traded paper damage for application and better fitting (and were pretty competitive with HAMs in terms of actual applied DPS IIRC). If you fit HAMs, you traded application and range for paper damage. If you fit HMLs, you don't know what you're doing because literally the only thing you have is range, and then it's saddled down by flight time, lack of damage application AND lack of paper damage.

I don't see how this is going to do much more than just encourage people to make bigger gangs of Caracals, really. It only hurts them on small scales.

@chessur: He was making the point that indeed on ships without a direct missile damage bonus it will be better to use the new rlms and split guns for better sustained dps. This is proven true. However I still feel that giving up the damage of 'new rlms' in favor of standard launchers is still worth it because you can change ammo to adapt to the situation at hand, and you can stay on field long enough to apply it because you get to fit xl asb+lse which is insane.

Ofcourse this does mean you can't really deal with active tanked frigates or cruisers but the new rlms would suffer the same problem as well as the 40 seconds of reloading which will kill you or force you to leave far more often than not.

@bouh: There are many situations, a few of which I have listed in previous posts that are very common and will result in rlms being terrible compared to lasers and rails. There is currently nothing pointing to rlm being overpowered other than it is fast to train into and currently allows the caracal to serve the same purpose as a pulse omen or rail thorax for solo/small gang. It has been pointed out many times that hml and ham are terrible against tackle if you don't have some way of increasing applied damage and you really don't usually get that option in solo/small gang.

Destroyers are fine, the only problem they have is that the combination of speed and sig they have makes them fodder to most cruisers and above. This limits their engagement profile but does not really prevent their use, you still see fleets of talwar and algos. Equally the thrasher, coercer and catalyst are all very good for engaging frigates and other destroyers. You don't see them used as anti tackle in fleets because cruisers will just blap them.

You should read the entire post, before posting more uninformed trash.

The Nomen / Railrax both have ranges of 50+K. And the Nomen does more than 400+ Dps at htat ranges. If you had any pvp experience at all, you would know that both the nomen and railrax easily shoot past 25K. However again, you are clearly out of your depth. Even at 50+K Both ships are going to be applying near 100% of their DPS. Honestly, they are very effective at batting down light tackle- just like RLM.


You personally don't think that HAM and HML don't look that bad? Have you ever even taken the time too look at any of the EFT numbers, or have any real PvP experience to back up your claim? You keep posting the same old tired ideas, that people have agian and again told you are just flat out wrong.

I can't understand how someone can be this dense.