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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Volstruis
Kybernauts
Kybernauts Clade
#841 - 2013-11-11 13:51:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Volstruis
I said basically, and you'd have to check bonuses.

I'm too lazy to do the maths.
Lilliana Stelles
#842 - 2013-11-11 14:04:00 UTC
I love burst DPS.
I'm tired of overheating not falling in line with a modules intended purpose.
This is the first thing I've seen working in that direction: Pack as much firepower as you want, but you'll have to get out once the ammo is gone.

It also brings back a little extra value to tanking, as an unexpectedly large buffer can let you win by default if you survive till they reload.

Not a forum alt. 
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#843 - 2013-11-11 14:10:58 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
[quote=Angelus Ryan]Against an unwebbed target, drones do far from their maximum DPS. If the Caracal webs the frig as well, the two drones are pretty much the least of the frig's problems.

In fact, WarriorII have close to the same speed than an AB frigate, so they will have the best shooting conditions.

Against MWD frigate though indeed that will be far from perfect, yet they are far from meaningless./quote]

In fact no, thats not the case, which you would know if you pvped. Warriors will very often mwd up to a target, overshoot it, and lose damage as they fly back, or MWD up to a target, try to get into an orbit, and find that the target is out of range, forcing them to mwd again.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#844 - 2013-11-11 14:13:02 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

That's true only for cruisers without bonuses to RLML, the Scythe Navy Issue and Osprey Navy Issue IIRC.



Both of these have bonuses to RLM, which you might know if you pvped.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#845 - 2013-11-11 14:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
its even worse. Its a binary system.

Either you are in a frigate that has no chance to survive the caracal because it has under 12-14k ehp. Or you are in a frigate (faction or t2) that can simply IGNORE the caracal, because there is ZERO chance the caracal can kill you even if you are a horrible frigate pilot, just because his missiles will end at half the job done)

You are exagerating : the only frigates which will survive a load of RLML are the AB frigates (not all of them and you are twice as fast as them anyway), AF and interceptors. Even a firetail, with MWD, take 66% of the damages of light missiles ; and only the tankiest frigates have 10kehp. And finaly, a TP will give you the edge for the 12kehp frigates.

Additionaly, all active tanked frigates will be raped in no time.

For all the other cases, the additional time needed will be due to dps nerf and not to burst mode, and you won't take a lot more time to kill them anyway.

Fun fact : RLML are so powerful we are not even considering the drones the cruiser will launch to the poor frigate. That might be the first rebalance post where drones are not considered for EFT warrioring.



My Dramiel has far more EHP against kinetic than what a caracal can dish.

And the absolute majority of frigates I fly or fly against are using AB (or duel proppign to use one). So on my view I woudl NEVER risk to bring a caracal to fight frigates again.

I do not get into blob warfare and usually when fighting frigates, they are in larger number than my gang. On that scenario (Taht most common that you will get a FIGHT, because most people run if they are outnumbered) the new rapid launchers are far inferior to light missile launchers.



Again. DPS is irrelevant if you cannot reach the total EHP of the target. And you peopel need to start factorign basica gang bonuses on the EHP of your ships, because almost no real PVP is without those (or at least you cannot expect your enemy to be on that condition)


On this part of your quote in specific: "For all the other cases, the additional time needed will be due to dps nerf and not to burst mode, and you won't take a lot more time to kill them anyway."


Its not like that. Example.. If enemy has 28k EHP and you can deal 14k damage before reload. The odler rapids would reach those 18k Way FASTER than the new rapid ones. And worse, that enemy wil lstay alive for at LEAST 40-50 extra seconds.. that it will be firing at you!!!

So this delay is not MINIMAL, it can and will most likely mean very bad things for any solo rapid launcher boat. That means no one in its sane mind would use this weapon solo.


Why I press ont he solo issue? BEcause Rubicon advertis eimprobvments for SMALL SCALE pvp, not blobs, and Blobs are already very well served.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#846 - 2013-11-11 14:23:33 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
25% faster, but higher sustained DPS than LML?

Yes, by ~30%.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#847 - 2013-11-11 14:26:36 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

That's true only for cruisers without bonuses to RLML, the Scythe Navy Issue and Osprey Navy Issue IIRC.
Both of these have bonuses to RLM, which you might know if you pvped.

Those ships have bonus to light missiles, not RLML. You would see the difference if you ceased to be an arrogant *******.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#848 - 2013-11-11 14:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
erased

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#849 - 2013-11-11 14:36:40 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
HazeInADaze wrote:
Why not nerf the baseline RoF then buff overheat? That way reload isn't affected but the trade off between damage and downtime remains.

Or, better yet, address the fact that unless the target is significantly larger or sufficiently webbed, missiles do poor damage. Then we would be less inclined to use rapid launchers. Without going to web range in my caracal, rapid lights simply out perform medium missiles vs cruiser or lower targets. But if I do go to web range, the resource consumption of rapid lights allows me to have the tank needed for close range combat. So rapids win again.

Rapid should be useful vs dessies and frigs, HAM and HML should be better vs cruiser. Neither should be completely worthless against the ship class it is not designed to kill. And resource consumption should be balanced so comparable tanks can be fit


I agree. Missiles (not their launchers but the missiles themselves) should be balanced so that it seems silly to try and use frigate-sized missiles against a cruiser-sized target. The only trouble comes when a missile frigate is suddenly more-or-less useless against a cruiser. I still feel the answer is to have a look at the damage formula and the missiles' damage application rather than trying to artificially create places for missiles, which is what we have going on here.



I think anyone with brains agree that the problem is the formula.


But to make it happen....


I dont think frigate sized missiles (like rapids) shoud lbe useles agaisnt cruisers, just not efficient, and should dish less effective DPS than the HM and HAMs.

Heavy missiles must be made useful again with urgency.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#850 - 2013-11-11 15:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

That's true only for cruisers without bonuses to RLML, the Scythe Navy Issue and Osprey Navy Issue IIRC.
Both of these have bonuses to RLM, which you might know if you pvped.

Those ships have bonus to light missiles, not RLML. You would see the difference if you ceased to be an arrogant *******.



Wow, you are so, so wrong. Get out of this thread. And stop shitting up the worthwhile conversations going on here- with your mind blowing misinformed ideas.

Scythe fleet, and Osprey Navy both have bonuses.

Maybe if you pvped, you would know these things.

Or maybe if you actually had an up to date EFT, you would know these things.

PS. RLMLs shoot light missiles, its not a seperate ammo type that fits into those launchers. The only ship that does not have bonuses applied to RLML's is the CNI.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#851 - 2013-11-11 15:11:48 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

That's true only for cruisers without bonuses to RLML, the Scythe Navy Issue and Osprey Navy Issue IIRC.
Both of these have bonuses to RLM, which you might know if you pvped.

Those ships have bonus to light missiles, not RLML. You would see the difference if you ceased to be an arrogant *******.


How can anyone be this wrong.

The Scythe Fleet has a bonus to MISSILES. You can test this in something like EFT by putting a cruise missile launcher on it and seeing that it does more dps than the same cruise missile launcher on a caracal ( I used cruise to demonstrate a missile type a cruiser would not be using).

You're making your self look foolish.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#852 - 2013-11-11 15:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Chessur wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Those ships have bonus to light missiles, not RLML. You would see the difference if you ceased to be an arrogant *******.



Wow, you are so, so wrong. Get out of this thread. And stop shitting up the worthwhile conversations going on here- with your mind blowing misinformed ideas.

Scythe fleet, and Osprey Navy both have bonuses.


"10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile velocity
10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage, 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage"

10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
10% bonus to Missile damage

Bonuses to light missiles (and the others), not RLMLs. Please, not this **** again Chessur. Roll
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#853 - 2013-11-11 15:19:14 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Those ships have bonus to light missiles, not RLML. You would see the difference if you ceased to be an arrogant *******.



Wow, you are so, so wrong. Get out of this thread. And stop shitting up the worthwhile conversations going on here- with your mind blowing misinformed ideas.

Scythe fleet, and Osprey Navy both have bonuses.


"10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile velocity
10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage, 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage"

10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
10% bonus to Missile damage

Bonuses to light missiles (and the others), not RLMLs. Please, not this **** again Chessur. Roll



No, it has a bonus to ALL missiles. Unfortunately I am yet to find a way to fit a citatel launcher on it :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#854 - 2013-11-11 15:19:33 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

That's true only for cruisers without bonuses to RLML, the Scythe Navy Issue and Osprey Navy Issue IIRC.
Both of these have bonuses to RLM, which you might know if you pvped.

Those ships have bonus to light missiles, not RLML. You would see the difference if you ceased to be an arrogant *******.



Wow, you are so, so wrong. Get out of this thread. And stop shitting up the worthwhile conversations going on here- with your mind blowing misinformed ideas.

Scythe fleet, and Osprey Navy both have bonuses.

Maybe if you pvped, you would know these things.

Or maybe if you actually had an up to date EFT, you would know these things.

PS. RLMLs shoot light missiles, its not a seperate ammo type that fits into those launchers. The only ship that does not have bonuses applied to RLML's is the CNI.


Pardon me, sir, but according to EFT v2.20.3 (release date 17 Oct 2013) the Caracal Navy has a bonus to RLML RoF (as does the normal Caracal), not the Osprey Navy which has 10% to HAM/Heavy velocity and 10%kin/5% other damage per level.

Also according to my EFT, the Scythe Fleet has 10% M Projectile Turret and 10% Missile damage per level. Apparently any type of missile.

I would have taken the data right from SiSi, but "short unexpected reboot".
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#855 - 2013-11-11 15:22:38 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Those ships have bonus to light missiles, not RLML. You would see the difference if you ceased to be an arrogant *******.



Wow, you are so, so wrong. Get out of this thread. And stop shitting up the worthwhile conversations going on here- with your mind blowing misinformed ideas.

Scythe fleet, and Osprey Navy both have bonuses.


"10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile velocity
10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage, 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage"

10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
10% bonus to Missile damage

Bonuses to light missiles (and the others), not RLMLs. Please, not this **** again Chessur. Roll



No, it has a bonus to ALL missiles. Unfortunately I am yet to find a way to fit a citatel launcher on it :P


Apparently the distinction between a "missile" and a "missile launcher" is hard lol.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#856 - 2013-11-11 15:23:51 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:


"10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile velocity
10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage, 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage"

10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
10% bonus to Missile damage

Bonuses to light missiles (and the others), not RLMLs. Please, not this **** again Chessur. Roll



No, it has a bonus to ALL missiles. Unfortunately I am yet to find a way to fit a citatel launcher on it :P


Yes. A bonus to all missiles' damage, not to all missile launchers. Nothing in the bonuses affects the RLMLs' stats. You're agreeing with me!

I feed that there's some confusion about the difference between a missile and a missile launcher here.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#857 - 2013-11-11 15:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Maybe Chessur meant to have wrote:

Wow, I am so, so wrong. I'll get out of this thread. And stop shitting up the worthwhile conversations going on here- with my mind blowing misinformed ideas.


Though I do admit that shiptoasting complete inaccurate nonsense is much easier and faster than checking your facts and linking your sources.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#858 - 2013-11-11 15:44:24 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Though I do admit that shiptoasting complete inaccurate nonsense is much easier and faster than checking your facts and linking your sources.

Are you ********?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#859 - 2013-11-11 15:47:53 UTC
Wow. Facts are hard apparently. Bonuses to damage type (EM/Therm/etc) carry over to all missile types. Bonuses to RoF, Flight time, and/or missile velocity only apply to the specified launcher or missile type.

And I still think changing RLMLs is a bad idea. Go ahead and try it on the BS launchers. But I don't think anyone will use them. I tried the iteration v1 on sisi and wasn't impressed. My Raven deals with frigs and cruisers just fine with drones and cruise missiles.

Heavy missiles need a buff. They should never have been nerfed.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#860 - 2013-11-11 16:06:03 UTC
Soldarius wrote:

Heavy missiles need a buff. They should never have been nerfed.


this is bullcrap. Heavy Missiles were insanely op given damage, damage application and effective range.
They are maybe a bit too weak now, but I like them better now than I did before the nerf.

My Condor costs less than that module!