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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#821 - 2013-11-11 12:03:04 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Is this idea not dead yet? Half expected CCP to have a good ole 'bad idea's introduced just before expansion' burning out back and say some prayers to the norse gods by now.

Let me help you guys out:

http://satireknight.wikispaces.com/file/view/flamethrower.gif/280029248/flamethrower.gif


Just realised this does look a bit like a certain CCP CEO P

http://i0.sinaimg.cn/gm/2012/0719/U4511P115DT20120719130651.jpg

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#822 - 2013-11-11 12:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Kagura Nikon wrote:
its even worse. Its a binary system.

Either you are in a frigate that has no chance to survive the caracal because it has under 12-14k ehp. Or you are in a frigate (faction or t2) that can simply IGNORE the caracal, because there is ZERO chance the caracal can kill you even if you are a horrible frigate pilot, just because his missiles will end at half the job done)

You are exagerating : the only frigates which will survive a load of RLML are the AB frigates (not all of them and you are twice as fast as them anyway), AF and interceptors. Even a firetail, with MWD, take 66% of the damages of light missiles ; and only the tankiest frigates have 10kehp. And finaly, a TP will give you the edge for the 12kehp frigates.

Additionaly, all active tanked frigates will be raped in no time.

For all the other cases, the additional time needed will be due to dps nerf and not to burst mode, and you won't take a lot more time to kill them anyway.

Fun fact : RLML are so powerful we are not even considering the drones the cruiser will launch to the poor frigate. That might be the first rebalance post where drones are not considered for EFT warrioring.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#823 - 2013-11-11 12:28:12 UTC
There is another 'thing' that is OP and noone complains about,

Gallente sentry drones with small electron blaster tracking and 60km optimal range.

But guess what,
we don't get ancillery drones with 5 minutes cooldown after deploying those..

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#824 - 2013-11-11 12:33:55 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Fun fact : RLML are so powerful we are not even considering the drones the cruiser will launch to the poor frigate. That might be the first rebalance post where drones are not considered for EFT warrioring.


Well, the Caracal is the most used example here and it has exactly two (2) drones.
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#825 - 2013-11-11 12:34:54 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

Gallente sentry drones with small electron blaster tracking


This is false.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#826 - 2013-11-11 12:48:14 UTC
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Fun fact : RLML are so powerful we are not even considering the drones the cruiser will launch to the poor frigate. That might be the first rebalance post where drones are not considered for EFT warrioring.


Well, the Caracal is the most used example here and it has exactly two (2) drones.

2 warriorsII do 32dps, but for the things we are talking about, they do make a difference. RLML Caracal with CN missiles do 218dps ; the two warriors increase it by 15%, and won't be affected by target speed as much as missiles will be. On AB frigate, that will be 30% more dps. Frigates don't like drones.
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#827 - 2013-11-11 12:54:14 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Fun fact : RLML are so powerful we are not even considering the drones the cruiser will launch to the poor frigate. That might be the first rebalance post where drones are not considered for EFT warrioring.


Well, the Caracal is the most used example here and it has exactly two (2) drones.

2 warriorsII do 32dps, but for the things we are talking about, they do make a difference. RLML Caracal with CN missiles do 218dps ; the two warriors increase it by 15%, and won't be affected by target speed as much as missiles will be. On AB frigate, that will be 30% more dps. Frigates don't like drones.


Against an unwebbed target, drones do far from their maximum DPS. If the Caracal webs the frig as well, the two drones are pretty much the least of the frig's problems.
The Sinister
Interbellum
#828 - 2013-11-11 12:54:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
Holy crap that's terrible ******* idea


Would love if you expanded a bit.



Dude now i am in my rapid lights caracal and i have EM charges fitted, I click on directional scanner and I see a Wolf on short scan coming to me!
WTF i have to wait 40 seconds to switch to Explosive Ammo? WTF REALLY!

My caracal will be dead by the time i get the right ammo in... Sad days coming to Eve
Kane Fenris
NWP
#829 - 2013-11-11 12:57:43 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Frigates don't like drones.


most frigs do easily kill drones
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#830 - 2013-11-11 13:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Against an unwebbed target, drones do far from their maximum DPS. If the Caracal webs the frig as well, the two drones are pretty much the least of the frig's problems.

In fact, WarriorII have close to the same speed than an AB frigate, so they will have the best shooting conditions.

Against MWD frigate though indeed that will be far from perfect, yet they are far from meaningless.

@Kane Fenris : easily, maybe, but remember there is also a cruiser shooting at you. A frigate can deal with a flight of drones, and even more easily with a flight of two drones, but she will have a very hard time dealing with anything more and most of the time drones+anything else = frigate warp off or die. See the Talos for example.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#831 - 2013-11-11 13:16:08 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Against an unwebbed target, drones do far from their maximum DPS. If the Caracal webs the frig as well, the two drones are pretty much the least of the frig's problems.

In fact, WarriorII have close to the same speed than an AB frigate, so they will have the best shooting conditions.

Against MWD frigate though indeed that will be far from perfect, yet they are far from meaningless.

@Kane Fenris : easily, maybe, but remember there is also a cruiser shooting at you. A frigate can deal with a flight of drones, and even more easily with a flight of two drones, but she will have a very hard time dealing with anything more and most of the time drones+anything else = frigate warp off or die. See the Talos for example.


i know it just simply that those 2 drone wont make a diffrence if the frig can survive 1 clip from the RLML
Volstruis
Mise en Abyme
The Ancients.
#832 - 2013-11-11 13:22:54 UTC
Super interesting point (with special thanks to Wolf Crendraven for pointing this out)

If you split them into 2 groups, and fire one until complete, then fire the others til complete, it basically works out exactly the same as it is now.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#833 - 2013-11-11 13:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Volstruis wrote:
Super interesting point (with special thanks to Wolf Crendraven for pointing this out)

If you split them into 2 groups, and fire one until complete, then fire the others til complete, it basically works out exactly the same as it is now.


At which point you're better off fitting LMLs to your cruiser and just operating them normally. Higher sustained DPS and room to fit a massive tank.
Volstruis
Mise en Abyme
The Ancients.
#834 - 2013-11-11 13:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Volstruis
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Volstruis wrote:
Super interesting point (with special thanks to Wolf Crendraven for pointing this out)

If you split them into 2 groups, and fire one until complete, then fire the others til complete, it basically works out exactly the same as it is now.


At which point you're better off fitting LMLs to your cruiser and just operating them normally. Higher sustained DPS and room to fit a massive tank.


Yep. Well you'd have to check bonuses. I don't have the energy lol.
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#835 - 2013-11-11 13:28:38 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Volstruis wrote:
Super interesting point (with special thanks to Wolf Crendraven for pointing this out)

If you split them into 2 groups, and fire one until complete, then fire the others til complete, it basically works out exactly the same as it is now.


At which point you're better off fitting LMLs to your cruiser and just operating them normally. Higher sustained DPS and room to fit a massive tank.


And also no need to wait 40s to reload to a damage type and/or FoFs.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#836 - 2013-11-11 13:31:18 UTC
Volstruis wrote:
Super interesting point (with special thanks to Wolf Crendraven for pointing this out)

If you split them into 2 groups, and fire one until complete, then fire the others til complete, it basically works out exactly the same as it is now.

Using CCP Rise's numbers and modules in the given example.
A current caracal will do 266 DPS with light fury missiles.
New will do 204.5DPS when split into 2 groups.
I dorn consider a 60 DPS difference "the same as it is now"

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#837 - 2013-11-11 13:39:39 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Volstruis wrote:
Super interesting point (with special thanks to Wolf Crendraven for pointing this out)

If you split them into 2 groups, and fire one until complete, then fire the others til complete, it basically works out exactly the same as it is now.


At which point you're better off fitting LMLs to your cruiser and just operating them normally. Higher sustained DPS and room to fit a massive tank.

That's true only for cruisers without bonuses to RLML, the Scythe Navy Issue and Osprey Navy Issue IIRC. All the others have 5% rof bonus which make them 25% faster than LML.

Having RLML in this case also allow you to use both groups for burst fire mode.

Kane Fenris wrote:
i know it just simply that those 2 drone wont make a diffrence if the frig can survive 1 clip from the RLML
We are talking about 2k of applyed damage which make a difference between a living and dead frigate, so those two drones can definitely make the difference ; moreover if this is the second or third lightly tanked frigate you are exploding.

As always, drones are either considered OP, like in the Stratios thread, or useless, like here.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#838 - 2013-11-11 13:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Volstruis wrote:
Super interesting point (with special thanks to Wolf Crendraven for pointing this out)

If you split them into 2 groups, and fire one until complete, then fire the others til complete, it basically works out exactly the same as it is now.


At which point you're better off fitting LMLs to your cruiser and just operating them normally. Higher sustained DPS and room to fit a massive tank.

That's true only for cruisers without bonuses to RLML, the Scythe Navy Issue and Osprey Navy Issue IIRC. All the others have 5% rof bonus which make them 25% faster than LML.

Having RLML in this case also allow you to use both groups for burst fire mode.

Kane Fenris wrote:
i know it just simply that those 2 drone wont make a diffrence if the frig can survive 1 clip from the RLML
We are talking about 2k of applyed damage which make a difference between a living and dead frigate, so those two drones can definitely make the difference ; moreover if this is the second or third lightly tanked frigate you are exploding.

As always, drones are either considered OP, like in the Stratios thread, or useless, like here.


25% faster, but higher sustained DPS than LML?
HazeInADaze
Safari Hunt Club
#839 - 2013-11-11 13:43:26 UTC
Why not nerf the baseline RoF then buff overheat? That way reload isn't affected but the trade off between damage and downtime remains.

Or, better yet, address the fact that unless the target is significantly larger or sufficiently webbed, missiles do poor damage. Then we would be less inclined to use rapid launchers. Without going to web range in my caracal, rapid lights simply out perform medium missiles vs cruiser or lower targets. But if I do go to web range, the resource consumption of rapid lights allows me to have the tank needed for close range combat. So rapids win again.

Rapid should be useful vs dessies and frigs, HAM and HML should be better vs cruiser. Neither should be completely worthless against the ship class it is not designed to kill. And resource consumption should be balanced so comparable tanks can be fit
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#840 - 2013-11-11 13:47:47 UTC
HazeInADaze wrote:
Why not nerf the baseline RoF then buff overheat? That way reload isn't affected but the trade off between damage and downtime remains.

Or, better yet, address the fact that unless the target is significantly larger or sufficiently webbed, missiles do poor damage. Then we would be less inclined to use rapid launchers. Without going to web range in my caracal, rapid lights simply out perform medium missiles vs cruiser or lower targets. But if I do go to web range, the resource consumption of rapid lights allows me to have the tank needed for close range combat. So rapids win again.

Rapid should be useful vs dessies and frigs, HAM and HML should be better vs cruiser. Neither should be completely worthless against the ship class it is not designed to kill. And resource consumption should be balanced so comparable tanks can be fit


I agree. Missiles (not their launchers but the missiles themselves) should be balanced so that it seems silly to try and use frigate-sized missiles against a cruiser-sized target. The only trouble comes when a missile frigate is suddenly more-or-less useless against a cruiser. I still feel the answer is to have a look at the damage formula and the missiles' damage application rather than trying to artificially create places for missiles, which is what we have going on here.