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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Sergeant RL3
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#761 - 2013-11-10 23:39:05 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
I'll clarify since you're too ignorant to get it:
THE POINT OF RLML IS TO BLAST SMALLER SHIPS.

You mouthbreathers seem to keep reading it as "the point of X ship is to blast smaller ships." No, that's the point of the RLMLs- they use frig sized ammo to combat frigs at the EXPENSE of lower (theoretic) dps. The problem being that Heavies are so terrible right now that the APPLIED dps of RLMLs may be higher. That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.

Too bad for destroyers.

@Michael Harari : please, stop faping on my killboard, it's becoming embarrassing... And you don't even know how to read it BTW, so stop trying.


You don't pvp at all, why are you even saying anything in this thread? You have never flown an RLML ship and you clearly have a poor understanding of pvp in general.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#762 - 2013-11-10 23:41:39 UTC
Morwennon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
40km is still immense for the base (with skills) range of a frigate weapon. And come on, do you seriously believe that a destroyer will survive being on-grid with a cruiser that's in range? Nobody cares what your sig is, you're totally screwed.
Well yeah, it would still jack up a dessie pretty hard. That's not terribly surprising. A cruiser that you fit to kill frigs and dessies should probably be able to do that rather effectively. Now drop a standard Thorax or Omen on the same grid as that Caracal, and it's the one that is gonna be screwed. It's paper-rocks-scissors. You are one hell of a small ship pilot Deagle, but stop looking at things from just that point of view.


How about rather effectively, but far worse than a destroyer, since you're as fast and have 4x the hp.

That's true for all attack cruisers compared to the corresponding destroyers; it's not an indication that the caracal is imbalanced, it just shows that destroyers need reworking. Hell, some *combat* cruisers outrun destroyers.


Yeah, it's not difficult. Dragoon with 400 plate and 2 armour rigs goes 1335m/s. Even if they had appropriate speed, they'd still be pretty poor frig-killers in actual fights, because everything can explode them instantly, whereas a cruiser has loads more hp, and when fitted with frig or anti-frig weapons can fit just about everything it would ever want.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#763 - 2013-11-10 23:50:27 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
How about rather effectively, but far worse than a destroyer, since you're as fast and have 4x the hp.
You're preaching to the choir in regards to the speed mate. It does need to be toned down. But you are also ignoring the increased cost in comparison to a dessie. And the larger sig which makes it more vulnerable to larger ships. What you are proposing is a 30mil cruiser that does it's job less effectively than a 5mil dessie, but is also complete fodder for any other cruiser, BC, or even most BSs. That isn't balance. That's an obsolete ship.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#764 - 2013-11-10 23:50:47 UTC
T1 Destroyers have always kinda sucked, they need a smaller sig raduis, and a bit of speed added, as well as a bit more tank. Now Interds are going to be nice, still prob get rocked my AF and cruisers, but they will be a force to recken with
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#765 - 2013-11-11 00:06:48 UTC
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:


Kinetic Bonus - This is an interesting point about ships with kinetic bonuses. You don't switch that often. The bonus takes away from decision making. The decision is 'to shoot kinetic or not to shoot kinetic.' With a kinetic bonus that can net you +25% damage, the decision is always to shoot kinetic.




The Caracal, Bellicose and Scythe Fleet Issue are not kinetic bonused. You switch ALL THE TIME.


You aren't really proving the point.
He is specifically referring to ships "with" kinetic bonuses.
That said the ships without kinetic specific bonuses is tragically low as you illustrated.


Yeah, sorry. I wasn't really clear. I wanted to say that the most accessible RLML platforms are not kinetic bonused, and due to that not switching often is false. Also, once you start talking Caldari T2 resist profiles, the 25% damage increase might as well be a nerf gun when compared to switching to EM/Exp.

I wasn't clear, been a long day.


Been a long day. I can appreciate that. So who originally asserted that missile users 'don't switch often'? (Hint: Rise.)

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#766 - 2013-11-11 00:14:12 UTC
Patri Andari wrote:
Should be required viewing for all new developers.
I guess it was one of those 1 year plans. Sad

You nailed it right there.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mobius Reynolds
Facepunch Industries
#767 - 2013-11-11 00:18:34 UTC
I don't have much experience using RLMLs...but even still...why such a massive change to a weapon systems who's most recent change was from Retribution (when light missiles received a slight buff)? (and before that when it got renamed)

I think the proposed change is interesting, and it might even be good, but it will be hard to measure while the imbalances between turrets and missiles still exist
Zircon Dasher
#768 - 2013-11-11 00:18:52 UTC
This srsly frustrates the ability to isbox your own gangs. RLMLs were just about perfect since they can deal with a range of scenarios. Nerfing the ability to quickly and efficiently deal with tackle (the only real problem one faces) while boxing more than 5 characters is a terrible idea.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Gorski Car
#769 - 2013-11-11 00:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorski Car
We are discussing this weapons in a pvp enviroment atm and if you do not even pvp you should just shut up.

Rise do u evn play eve? Also never ******* ever listen to prometheus

Collect this post
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#770 - 2013-11-11 00:55:20 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
Also never ******* ever listen to prometheus


Quoting for Posterity. Preserved this in the annals for the 5 years this game still has until CCP runs out of business.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Leokokim
Mining Industry Exile Foundation
Synergy of Steel
#771 - 2013-11-11 01:45:13 UTC
A lot of knowledgeable people postet true stuff here.

RLML are used because the alternatives, HAMs and HMs aren't good enough as of now.

And imho the two best statements in this thread:

>> a weapons system hated by both sides of the attack is a bad weapon system.

>> a Cerb doing more sustained DPS with frig weapons instead of cruiser weapons.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#772 - 2013-11-11 01:53:22 UTC
Leokokim wrote:
A lot of knowledgeable people postet true stuff here.

RLML are used because the alternatives, HAMs and HMs aren't good enough as of now.

And imho the two best statements in this thread:

>> a weapons system hated by both sides of the attack is a bad weapon system.

>> a Cerb doing more sustained DPS with frig weapons instead of cruiser weapons.


How I anticipate this post will be responded to:

The ~metrics~ show lots of people using HAMs and HMLs so they must not be as bad as we think they are.

>> One side's concerns aren't that big a deal and the other side's concerns validate that this change is urgently needed right now.

>> Working as intended because of front-loaded burst damage.

---

Naturally, I hope I'm wrong.
Solj RichPopolous
Silent Havok.
H A R D L I N E R S
#773 - 2013-11-11 02:03:19 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
If anything should have a "burst" mechanic with a long reload time, it should be remote reps.


This is the single most best best bestest idea in the existence of the game.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#774 - 2013-11-11 02:33:59 UTC
Now you can ECM jam yourself for 40 secs!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#775 - 2013-11-11 02:34:22 UTC
With (now) 8 days to go, we've got a sole dev update? Honestly I don't even know why we have these forums. The premise is that the interaction is supposed to be somewhat cathartic, but following these forums seems more akin to reading the obituaries (every time there's an update, we know something's died; we just hope it's not related to us).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#776 - 2013-11-11 02:56:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
With (now) 8 days to go, we've got a sole dev update? Honestly I don't even know why we have these forums. The premise is that the interaction is supposed to be somewhat cathartic, but following these forums seems more akin to reading the obituaries (every time there's an update, we know something's died; we just hope it's not related to us).


It's been Sunday all day and now it's finally Monday in Iceland. As of this post it's just about 3am at CCP HQ; let people do things like get out of bed and eat breakfast and maybe even unlock the front door at CCP so people can get into the building.
Ion Blacknight
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#777 - 2013-11-11 03:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Blacknight
RIP RLM Caracal, ? - 2013

Anyone feel inspired to write the rest of the obituary?

War reports: Blacknight active
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#778 - 2013-11-11 03:06:31 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
It's been Sunday all day and now it's finally Monday in Iceland. As of this post it's just about 3am at CCP HQ; let people do things like get out of bed and eat breakfast and maybe even unlock the front door at CCP so people can get into the building.

8 days until Rubicon and you don't think people aren't working weekends and putting in OT? (they should be if they're not) And since when is the above a prerequisite to posting a simple update which can be done remotely from virtually anywhere at any time? I'm not the one that pulled the proverbial rabbit out of the hat mere days before a major release, either.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#779 - 2013-11-11 03:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
It's been Sunday all day and now it's finally Monday in Iceland. As of this post it's just about 3am at CCP HQ; let people do things like get out of bed and eat breakfast and maybe even unlock the front door at CCP so people can get into the building.

8 days until Rubicon and you don't think people aren't working weekends and putting in OT? (they should be if they're not) And since when is the above a prerequisite to posting a simple update which can be done remotely from virtually anywhere at any time? I'm not the one that pulled the proverbial rabbit out of the hat mere days before a major release, either.


8 days until Rubicon and I'm pretty sure people aren't working Sundays and coming in at 3am on Monday morning, yes.

At the very least, I sincerely hope they're not working 7 days a week and putting in 20-hour days. That would make for some significantly bad results.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#780 - 2013-11-11 03:31:58 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
8 days until Rubicon and I'm pretty sure people aren't working Sundays and coming in at 3am on Monday morning, yes. At the very least, I sincerely hope they're not working 7 days a week and putting in 20-hour days. That would make for some significantly bad results.

Pretty sure they are putting in substantial OT (would be very surprised if they weren't). You don't have to work 20/7 to post a simple update, so please stop trying to equate this with third-world slave labour. Again, I'm not the one that introduced the proposed change at this stage - and the RHML thread was all but ignored for the past month. I'm already prepared for this being implemented as is, and am not realistically expecting any substantial dialog on changes.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.