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1st Wormhole Alliance Tournament (WHAT)

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Pobunjenik
Resbroko Liberation Fleet
#61 - 2013-11-02 02:14:46 UTC
Bronya Boga wrote:
Sign SUSU up

You've been added!

Put a representative in WHAT's official channel 'Altar of Bob' if you want to voice your opinion.
Also, join this mailing list: WH Alliance Tournament
Pobunjenik
Resbroko Liberation Fleet
#62 - 2013-11-02 11:53:53 UTC
Rules of engagement have been edited into the OP.
Does anyone have a date in mind?
Andrej Tarkovsky
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-11-03 01:34:55 UTC
WHAT will show up on your dscan at the end of january (2014). Untill then we wil plan and try really hard to make WHAT notable event in EVE.
Gunner GzR
Timber Wolves
#64 - 2013-11-03 23:47:41 UTC
This sounds like fun. Will run it by the corp via our forums and see if we can get involvedBig smile

Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#65 - 2013-11-04 04:36:56 UTC
This is an outstanding idea, and we'll certainly come and join in the fun at a later date when we're sufficiently prepaired to do so!

I can see Bob being made very happy with a wormhole system dedicated completely to him, with constant sacrifices in his name, especially if any filthy infidels dare threaten holy WHAT space. Cool

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Pobunjenik
Resbroko Liberation Fleet
#66 - 2013-11-04 12:55:52 UTC
Should I sign you guys up?
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#67 - 2013-11-07 21:07:17 UTC
Could we get this stickied?


Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

The Diogenes Club | Join W-Space | Down The Pipe
ROSSLINDEN0
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-11-09 02:36:43 UTC
We wont take part to keep this fair and fun for everyone else, also id like to donate an Etana to be the prize for this comp for the small fee of 90b
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#69 - 2013-11-09 04:04:04 UTC
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
We wont take part to keep this fair and fun for everyone else, also id like to donate an Etana to be the prize for this comp for the small fee of 90b


So smug. +1 because earned.
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#70 - 2013-11-09 13:54:21 UTC
You can count us in if were not already on the list, my DO was supposed to take care of this. will have to smack him when I get home

Event Organizer of EVE North East
Pobunjenik
Resbroko Liberation Fleet
#71 - 2013-11-10 11:20:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Pobunjenik
ExookiZ wrote:
You can count us in if were not already on the list, my DO was supposed to take care of this. will have to smack him when I get home

You have already been added. Spare your DO. :D
Garmon
Gods Holy Light Bringing You're Penance
#72 - 2013-11-10 20:11:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Garmon
It's really cool that you guys are doing this, I like the reserve idea. My main concern is that the rules might be imbalanced

There seems to be no concern for sentry ships, they are now stronger than they were during ATXI, and they were overused in ATXI because of how powerful sentrys have become. Ishtars now get the same bonuses as the Dominix, and without any options in regards to banning, sentry comps should be very popular, SCL tried to adapt to it by simply making sentry ships take more points, but you can also ban them in SCL, and currently they're banned in every match even though they take more points

My other concern is double logistics, and no limitation on implants, and faction mods, faction mods is cool, and you can't police implants, so might as well not have any rules on it, but those combined with double logistics might make some matches super boring

If you were to fight 15 guys with 15 guys on TQ, and both sides had double logistics, it's less likely that those 2 logis will keep everything alive when compared to a 15 v 15 in a tournament setting

The reason it's different in a tournament format is that negating damage in any way possible is considered, from what you fit on your ship, what type of ewar you have, to how your FC utilize it, if teams in ATXI were sometimes able to win matches without losing a single ship, with just 1 logistic, no pirate implants and no faction modules, imagine what 2 logi + all those could do?

Sorry for that little rant, just wanted to voice my opinion to hopefully better your cool idea
I like Duncan
Pobunjenik
Resbroko Liberation Fleet
#73 - 2013-11-10 23:01:27 UTC
Garmon wrote:
It's really cool that you guys are doing this, I like the reserve idea. My main concern is that the rules might be imbalanced

There seems to be no concern for sentry ships, they are now stronger than they were during ATXI, and they were overused in ATXI because of how powerful sentrys have become. Ishtars now get the same bonuses as the Dominix, and without any options in regards to banning, sentry comps should be very popular, SCL tried to adapt to it by simply making sentry ships take more points, but you can also ban them in SCL, and currently they're banned in every match even though they take more points

My other concern is double logistics, and no limitation on implants, and faction mods, faction mods is cool, and you can't police implants, so might as well not have any rules on it, but those combined with double logistics might make some matches super boring

If you were to fight 15 guys with 15 guys on TQ, and both sides had double logistics, it's less likely that those 2 logis will keep everything alive when compared to a 15 v 15 in a tournament setting

The reason it's different in a tournament format is that negating damage in any way possible is considered, from what you fit on your ship, what type of ewar you have, to how your FC utilize it, if teams in ATXI were sometimes able to win matches without losing a single ship, with just 1 logistic, no pirate implants and no faction modules, imagine what 2 logi + all those could do?

Sorry for that little rant, just wanted to voice my opinion to hopefully better your cool idea

Thank you for your feedback, constructive critics are always welcome!
Two logis will help level out sentries. And losing 1 logi won't automatically mean losing the fight.
Also, winning without casualties simply means you either had a better fleet composition or a better FC.
As for implants, boosters and faction modules - this is a wormhole event. All of that allows for more variables, unknowns, things to think about when countering.
Podding will be ok too (because those who want to use expensive implants have to have some kind of risk, right)?

I'm against fitting restrictions of any kind (until ISK becomes a factor in winning, so no deadspace/officer modules).
If sentries are SO GOOD, then everybody will have something to counter them (if they play smart).
However, if everybody will have something to counter sentries, why bring them?

Do you see my point? Its all unknown and its all in a wormhole. :)
Garmon
Gods Holy Light Bringing You're Penance
#74 - 2013-11-10 23:41:14 UTC
I don't have any problems against the fitting rules and the implants, just said that they would amplify the effectiveness of double logi even further

Quote:
Two logis will help level out sentries. And losing 1 logi won't automatically mean losing the fight.


My main issue with two logis is that it will make a lot of fights super boring, not so much balance issues, you don't want matches taking far too long to finish / be on a stalemate. That's the most important thing you need to think about, how to make the entire competition fun for every one

When I was talking about how teams can win without casualties, I was just trying to emphasize how taking every consideration on how you can diminish incoming dps, it's possible not to lose a single ship, with just 1 logi

Balance wise, 2 logi would hurt sentry all ins, but would make the other sentry setups far stronger since they revolve around kiting and minimizing incoming dps

In terms of people bringing a counter, there honestly isn't many viable options when it comes to a tournament format, 10mn AB frigates + more sentry spam was the main counter to sentrys, not sure if I'd call sentrys a counter to sentrys , I implore you to think of some ideas though and I'll let you know what I think

I suggest looking over the ATXI matches again and the last SCL tournament to help your decision
I like Duncan
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#75 - 2013-11-10 23:46:39 UTC
Maybe we can just ban sentries? Not like it's the tip of the spear in WH PVP anyway.


Thanks for takin' a look at the tourney setup, Garmon.

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

The Diogenes Club | Join W-Space | Down The Pipe
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#76 - 2013-11-10 23:54:53 UTC
Let me know when you'll have a schedule in place or at least some dates, I can swing by and film the fights if you guys want, make some videos AT style and what not. We can even have someone commenting on the fights.

I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I--THE CAPACITOR IS EMPTY

Youtube: /asayanami

Twitter: @asayanami

wormholefundamentals.com
ROSSLINDEN0
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-11-11 02:33:25 UTC
The double logi will make this very **** and more dull than normal AT's you should defo consider that change
Missy Bunnz
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#78 - 2013-11-12 03:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Missy Bunnz
Everyone derides the nature of armor t3 pvp in wormholes, so why not setup the rules to make this not possible? Most fleets, even not armor t3, don't leave home without logi. For the first incarnation, why not go ahead and ban all T2/Tournament/cruiser logi ships entirely. If people want to bring logi, leave it for the T1 frigates. Yes, they can be good, but they can be very easily countered.

You could even consider banning all forms of remote assistance modules. Logi in small gangs (last I heard you were talking 3v3 here?) is game-breaking. In 3v3, you are already bordering on not being able to break some local tanks, let alone remotely supported tanks.

EDIT: I see a change to 15v15. Boring. We don't need bigger fights, we need smaller fights. Drop to 6v6? 5v5? 15v15 counts too many entities out, due to lower numbers regularly, not counting the ability for the smaller entities to commit 15 bodies to somewhere other than home for the duration of the fights.
Bei ArtJay
Side Kicks
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#79 - 2013-11-12 10:46:02 UTC
WHAT is this.

Love tournaments, love the idea, love your enthusiasm, but think there are maybe some things that you might not have considered.

Just some general feedback, if you would like some more detail give me a poke would love to have a chat. Need to check with the rest of my corp but I will try and put a team together for this.

- I don't think I have ever read a Garmon post with so little troll, so take heed of what he said! I read the rules first and immediately I thought that two logi would be horrible. 15 vs 15 is not a good solution.

- Banning sentry drones might be an interesting idea. I really am for keeping everything that is allowed on TQ in the arena, but this might be a good space to test out the banning of sentries given that w-space teams corps are not usually the best at kiting and prefer in-your-face brawling PVP.

- The logistics of a tournament in a wormhole of 15 vs 15 sounds really rough. Footwork had to join up with Red Circle inc (so two 100 man corps) to ensure we had enough players for SCL 4 and 5 and that was on SISI which has instant access and no logistical problems (apart form CCP re-setting the server and wiping all your fitted ships). To bring into the WH the amount of ships and people we used for SCL5 (i.e. the most up-to-date meta) would probably consist of around 3 freighter runs. This would not fit in a small POS. 15 vs15 means possibly even more battleships. Depending on the format of your tournament there could be at least a dozen games for the victor? This would mean that winning this competition would almost definitely mean being the most logistically awesome team, not necessarily the best at fighting. So if hauling turns you on - great! If explosions, maybe not so. My suggestion would be for the first tournament to make it 5 vs 5, 50 points and 5 min time-limit. This would allow the format to be tested with-out over burdening the competitors and organisers. Other corpmates can come along to provide 'security'. Another thing to consider is the amount of ISK at stake in such large teams.

- The idea of reserve pilots is an interesting one - especially if the pilot can decide on what ship to bring while the battle is already under-way (within the points/rules limits, scorpion with race specific hardeners/jammers anyone? :p)

- What about the idea of something completely different to normal tournament formats - a 'thunderdome' tournament. So you get all of the corps interested to anchor their small POS and get their ships in (WH enterance location is announced say 4 hours before the start). No stront allowed in the towers. X pilots a side. Free for all, last tower standing wins! Spectators police the WH nothing in/out after the start of the match. No podding allowed (so people can re-ship till they run out of ships). 8 Hour time limit, corp with the most tower kill-mails wins. If there are already residents then that creates some additional fun that you have to deal with.

- Alternative idea - make it like the SCL, have it on SISI (but probably without CCP support), but only w-space corp teams allowed? Make T3's cheap in points to give it a w-space flavour?

Good luck!

p.s. I would like to apply to be a commentator if you are having a stream :p
Pobunjenik
Resbroko Liberation Fleet
#80 - 2013-11-12 14:29:29 UTC
Missy Bunnz wrote:
Everyone derides the nature of armor t3 pvp in wormholes, so why not setup the rules to make this not possible? Most fleets, even not armor t3, don't leave home without logi. For the first incarnation, why not go ahead and ban all T2/Tournament/cruiser logi ships entirely. If people want to bring logi, leave it for the T1 frigates. Yes, they can be good, but they can be very easily countered.

You could even consider banning all forms of remote assistance modules. Logi in small gangs (last I heard you were talking 3v3 here?) is game-breaking. In 3v3, you are already bordering on not being able to break some local tanks, let alone remotely supported tanks.

EDIT: I see a change to 15v15. Boring. We don't need bigger fights, we need smaller fights. Drop to 6v6? 5v5? 15v15 counts too many entities out, due to lower numbers regularly, not counting the ability for the smaller entities to commit 15 bodies to somewhere other than home for the duration of the fights.


Its actually 13v13 (2 in reserve for each team). Someone didn't do their homework. :P

As for banning logi cruisers, that does sound tempting so my team of trained spiderpigs will consider it.
Ban armor? No.