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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#741 - 2013-11-10 22:58:28 UTC
Major Killz wrote:

What? Rockets do not have 15,000m base flight times unbonused. In fact I have no idea what you’re on about. From that point you went from one silly statement to another and of course insinuating I didn’t understand this and that. Bra! Your corp. often ends up on the bad end of anything I do with or without missiles. Check yourself.

Also grown men are speaking. You’re excused.


Most rocket ships have a velocity bonus. Kestrel, Harpy, Corax, Talwar. These hit out to 15km. I think the two ships that are unbonused are the Breacher and Vengeance. They hit out to 10k. My point still stands. Missiles are iconic for their range. 10k is still 2x the range Blasters hit out to (4k). If we talk long range ammo, Null hits out to 7.5km, Javelin Rockets hit out to 15km.

The Bellicose is unbonused to velocity. It hits out to 42km. A Caracal with 5 RLML with 3 BCS gets 211 DPS. The Rail Moa with 200mm Rails with CN Thorium (~40km range) gets 335 DPS.

Caracals give up 120 DPS to be able to hit frigates effectively. And you still think they do their job too well.


Platypus King
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#742 - 2013-11-10 23:00:08 UTC
It is sad how terrible of an idea this is. You have just shrunk the engagement profile of a caracal to never being able to fight ships its size only smaller.

Kil2 would have never stood for such a heinous attack on solo/small gang pvp. Oh wait......
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#743 - 2013-11-10 23:02:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Yes a missile actually be good at what it's designed for is always too good. Am I right?

Nope. The thing is more like "when missile users are happy with their weapon system, it's obviously OP."

PS : In fact, AC have the same problem : either the weapon system is OP and massively used, or balanced and not used because people don't understand its strengths.


Please tell us more, using your great experience in pvp, which includes 0 even fights and 0 outnumbered fights, and a handful of ganks.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#744 - 2013-11-10 23:04:37 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Blasting small ships is supposed to be the point.

Blasting smaller ships is the point of destroyers already and they don't have any other role. What do they become if the Caracal is better than all of them in every single way ?

I'll clarify since you're too ignorant to get it:
THE POINT OF RLML IS TO BLAST SMALLER SHIPS.

You mouthbreathers seem to keep reading it as "the point of X ship is to blast smaller ships." No, that's the point of the RLMLs- they use frig sized ammo to combat frigs at the EXPENSE of lower (theoretic) dps. The problem being that Heavies are so terrible right now that the APPLIED dps of RLMLs may be higher. That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#745 - 2013-11-10 23:07:14 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:
That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.


nope
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#746 - 2013-11-10 23:10:54 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.


nope


Yup. If HMLs could actually hit targets you might see them used in small gangs/solo fleets. Instead you use RLML with pathetic less than Destroyer DPS so you can actually hit something.

It's akin to a Thorax using Light Neutron Blasters and people QQ'ing that it hits frigates.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#747 - 2013-11-10 23:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.


nope


What an eloquent and insightful post.

No, not really.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#748 - 2013-11-10 23:11:59 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:
I'll clarify since you're too ignorant to get it:
THE POINT OF RLML IS TO BLAST SMALLER SHIPS.

You mouthbreathers seem to keep reading it as "the point of X ship is to blast smaller ships." No, that's the point of the RLMLs- they use frig sized ammo to combat frigs at the EXPENSE of lower (theoretic) dps. The problem being that Heavies are so terrible right now that the APPLIED dps of RLMLs may be higher. That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.

Too bad for destroyers.

@Michael Harari : please, stop faping on my killboard, it's becoming embarrassing... And you don't even know how to read it BTW, so stop trying.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#749 - 2013-11-10 23:17:02 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.


nope


Yup. If HMLs could actually hit targets you might see them used in small gangs/solo fleets. Instead you use RLML with pathetic less than Destroyer DPS so you can actually hit something.

It's akin to a Thorax using Light Neutron Blasters and people QQ'ing that it hits frigates.


light neutron blasters have about 3km range. range bonused lights have 60km and are immune to ewar. HMLs hit fine, why can't people just l2p and make an effort?
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#750 - 2013-11-10 23:19:30 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
No, I’m suggesting that almost every ship and weapon system that has been introduced in game has been used for a purpose other than what CCP intended. Which has been a BIG part of what we see as balance issues these past years. Very view concepts they had are being used for their original purpose. I could name them off but if you’re not ret@rded and have been in game since 2007. Then…

Some players just formulate new ways of using said weapon system and ship and others follow.
I'm curious how that is relevant to the topic at hand. Yes, players always find new ways to use things. That's always been a staple of EvE. But that's not what was being referenced in the convo thread you were responding to. It was a discussion of RLMLs being extremely effective against small targets. Which I think everyone can agree that's what RLMLs were designed to do. So not really sure how that relates to your rather strident and insistent view that things can be used for something other than their original purpose. RLMLs are designed for a purpose, and in this case are being used for that exact purpose. That's nothing new or outside the box.

Major Killz wrote:
Also, don’t tell me what I do or do not know.
ummm... okay? I actually stated that "I think you know that", but if you wanna take grave offense over it, then please accept my most gracious apologies for besmirching your important internet e-honour... What?

TrouserDeagle wrote:
That's the point of destroyers, and they come with no hp and are now slower than cruisers, and don't do it very well at 60km.
Well I'd agree that the speed between attack cruisers and dessies is a bit out of balance. And that the velocity bonus on the Caracal should probably NOT apply to Light Missiles. But dessies are still more agile, warp faster, and have a smaller sig - so they do have that going for them. Cruisers will get rocked pretty hard by an ABC. A competent dessie pilot - not so much. And having more than one ship class option for the same role is good. Key is to not have one class obsolete the other.
Ion Blacknight
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#751 - 2013-11-10 23:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Blacknight
Patri Andari wrote:
All the feedback we got last year, it was very clear we here headed in not the right direction. I wanted to pull us back in the right one. So goals for 2012. What is it that CCP is going to be doing for you, the EVE player as we go through this year?..

We're gonna stop the Jesus features. We're gonna stop the huge "There's gonna be one great amazing thing that will change EVE forever" attitude....

We're gonna be about concentration on the industrialist, the pvpers, the null seccers, the factional warfare players, the role players, everybody thats actualy played at the heart of the game. That's what we are gonna be about this year, is that core spaceship game.

Iteration is not a dirty word. There are so many things that we can go back to...that we can re-balance...add things to. Which isn't creating something completely brand new..but going back and giving those things a bit of invigoration...

Building on that, you [eve player base] are the important people...you guys have very clear views on what is a great game. We [CCP] need to make sure that the game is fun for you. We need to make that we are delivering something you want to play

An so that listening, that engaging back with the community, that developers becoming more accessible [and] looking for that feedback, getting back what it is that you want to see in the game. That is what we are doing this year.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

----Senior Producer Jon Lander
EVE Fanfest 2012: EVE Keynote


Should be required viewing for all new developers.

I guess it was one of those 1 year plans. Sad


"Building on that, you [eve player base] are the important people...you guys have very clear views on what is a great game. We [CCP] need to make sure that the game is fun for you. We need to make that we are delivering something you want to play

An so that listening, that engaging back with the community, that developers becoming more accessible [and] looking for that feedback, getting back what it is that you want to see in the game. That is what we are doing this year."


Thank you for posting that Patri. +1

We do not want to see this in the game.

War reports: Blacknight active
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#752 - 2013-11-10 23:25:42 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:

TrouserDeagle wrote:
That's the point of destroyers, and they come with no hp and are now slower than cruisers, and don't do it very well at 60km.
Well I'd agree that the speed between attack cruisers and dessies is a bit out of balance. And that the velocity bonus on the Caracal should probably NOT apply to Light Missiles. But dessies are still more agile, warp faster, and have a smaller sig - so they do have that going for them. Cruisers will get rocked pretty hard by an ABC. A competent dessie pilot - not so much. And having more than one ship class option for the same role is good. Key is to not have one class obsolete the other.


40km is still immense for the base (with skills) range of a frigate weapon. And come on, do you seriously believe that a destroyer will survive being on-grid with a cruiser that's in range? Nobody cares what your sig is, you're totally screwed.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#753 - 2013-11-10 23:26:49 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
I'll clarify since you're too ignorant to get it:
THE POINT OF RLML IS TO BLAST SMALLER SHIPS.

You mouthbreathers seem to keep reading it as "the point of X ship is to blast smaller ships." No, that's the point of the RLMLs- they use frig sized ammo to combat frigs at the EXPENSE of lower (theoretic) dps. The problem being that Heavies are so terrible right now that the APPLIED dps of RLMLs may be higher. That's not an issue of the RLMLs it's an imbalance issue of the heavies.

Too bad for destroyers.

@Michael Harari : please, stop faping on my killboard, it's becoming embarrassing... And you don't even know how to read it BTW, so stop trying.


Ok, prove me wrong and link an example of a close to even fight you have ever had.
Morrow Disca
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#754 - 2013-11-10 23:32:02 UTC
RIP RLML Caracal, you were fun while you lasted. Guess i'll go get drunk til CCP fixes you again in 4 years.
BBQ FTW
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#755 - 2013-11-10 23:32:13 UTC
wow my pve smurf has better bc rank than this guy
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#756 - 2013-11-10 23:32:54 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
40km is still immense for the base (with skills) range of a frigate weapon. And come on, do you seriously believe that a destroyer will survive being on-grid with a cruiser that's in range? Nobody cares what your sig is, you're totally screwed.
Well yeah, it would still jack up a dessie pretty hard. That's not terribly surprising. A cruiser that you fit to kill frigs and dessies should probably be able to do that rather effectively. Now drop a standard Thorax or Omen on the same grid as that Caracal, and it's the one that is gonna be screwed. It's paper-rocks-scissors. You are one hell of a small ship pilot Deagle, but stop looking at things from just that point of view.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#757 - 2013-11-10 23:33:26 UTC
Morrow Disca wrote:
RIP RLML Caracal, you were fun while you lasted. Guess i'll go get drunk til CCP fixes you again in 4 years.


It was overpowered even before they did the massive unnecessary light missile buff a few expansions ago.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#758 - 2013-11-10 23:35:23 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
40km is still immense for the base (with skills) range of a frigate weapon. And come on, do you seriously believe that a destroyer will survive being on-grid with a cruiser that's in range? Nobody cares what your sig is, you're totally screwed.
Well yeah, it would still jack up a dessie pretty hard. That's not terribly surprising. A cruiser that you fit to kill frigs and dessies should probably be able to do that rather effectively. Now drop a standard Thorax or Omen on the same grid as that Caracal, and it's the one that is gonna be screwed. It's paper-rocks-scissors. You are one hell of a small ship pilot Deagle, but stop looking at things from just that point of view.


How about rather effectively, but far worse than a destroyer, since you're as fast and have 4x the hp.
Morrow Disca
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#759 - 2013-11-10 23:35:40 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Morrow Disca wrote:
RIP RLML Caracal, you were fun while you lasted. Guess i'll go get drunk til CCP fixes you again in 4 years.


It was overpowered even before they did the massive unnecessary light missile buff a few expansions ago.


Not really, it ruined frigs to be sure, but against anything else it was useless. I guess i just enjoyed blowing away tackle and moonwalking away from a 20 man gang, i mean, isn't that kind of the only 'solo PVP' that is left in this game?
Morwennon
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#760 - 2013-11-10 23:37:56 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
40km is still immense for the base (with skills) range of a frigate weapon. And come on, do you seriously believe that a destroyer will survive being on-grid with a cruiser that's in range? Nobody cares what your sig is, you're totally screwed.
Well yeah, it would still jack up a dessie pretty hard. That's not terribly surprising. A cruiser that you fit to kill frigs and dessies should probably be able to do that rather effectively. Now drop a standard Thorax or Omen on the same grid as that Caracal, and it's the one that is gonna be screwed. It's paper-rocks-scissors. You are one hell of a small ship pilot Deagle, but stop looking at things from just that point of view.


How about rather effectively, but far worse than a destroyer, since you're as fast and have 4x the hp.

That's true for all attack cruisers compared to the corresponding destroyers; it's not an indication that the caracal is imbalanced, it just shows that destroyers need reworking. Hell, some *combat* cruisers outrun destroyers.