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CCP we want parity in EVE and DUST514, not special protections for corps with DUST members!
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Jihad Destroyer 011011
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-11-10 16:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jihad Destroyer 011011
DUST514 Corp Leaders are getting favoritism over EVE Corp Leaders.
Recently several of us have been doing very bad things to corps from within. Corp Espionage has been and should always be considered normal to meta game play in New Eden. it is part of what makes what we do special. We started our plans over 7 months ago and started pulling the triggers on multiple corps in the last few days... In a true sandbox game if you don't do your homework you will get burned HARD. These corps were aligning against some equities we support and decided now was the time.

Recently in several espionage operations GMs have been stepping in to stop or delay corps with DUST members from being taken over rightfully by our team of crack black box operators using normal and well documented espionage methods which I will not go into here. This is an unfair protection of corps with DUST members. I will not post the GMs comments but suffice to say they are hand holding the corps with DUST members and intervening on their behalf to save them unfairly.

Failure of the Build
Clearly all Corps and their leaders SHOULD definitely have access to their shares in EVE and DUST514. Majority DUST514 Corps should not have to have an EVE alt join them to become part of an alliance. Those however are not exploits they are failures of the game build at this time and much higher priority should be placed on getting the code written to allow corps to manage their corps on an equal basis with EVE corp leaders. Additionally EVE leaders should have the same parity to issue DUST specific roles which were recently introduced.

Definitely not an Exploit
At no point were any of the conspiring alts made CEO to cause the shares to be created in the first place, and in a true sandbox game if you do not do your homework and learn you will get burned. Let them burn. I was the second one in for every case, they all had EVE members besides me with experience and therefore we were operating clearly within the mechanics of the game. GMs jumping in the way they did shows favoritism for DUST514 members which paying EVE players NEVER get.

Examples:
While not related to me it is a good example: A corp believes there is a bug and towards the end it comes out the espionage agent was really good at covering his tracks and the CEO/Director is unable to understand what is happening to him. How is this the espionage operators fault? It isn't. The purpose of Espionage involves sewing deception and confusion into their ranks to further cause issues. (as a side note I spoke with the agent that did this, In their corp channel the corp members began threatening the espionage agents real life afterwards. Not the kind of people we want talking to kids who may be playing the game if you ask me. ) https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119273&find=unread

In this next case the CEO is reasonably expected to be upset, they just had their corp stolen, however they went and begged for help and were given an unfair protection from GMs because they "dont know the rules". If I did this in EVE I would have gotten a "Too bad man, HTFU." This espionage is clearly not an exploit as they had admitted to having a great deal of very experienced members in EVE in their corp the whole time, and the leaders were not very smart about their choices. (Also this was legendary in the rage posting from their whole alliance in their EVEmails to me for the last two days. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=119973

Opportunity for Course Correction
So we ask for parity... Corps with DUST leadership should not get special treatment and protections and CCP should really consider putting a priority on ensuring equality and access to roles for EVE and DUST514 leaders managing a corp. Also please consider merging the DUST514 forums into the EVE forums so the DUST players can learn and not suffer in isolation any longer.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-11-10 16:30:12 UTC
SP reimbursement and now this. Welcome to the EVE universe, where the sandbox is slowly being replaced with a soft play area.

Dodixie > Hek
Jim Era
#3 - 2013-11-10 16:38:26 UTC
Hey, this is all happenings since that EA guy joined CCP.

*sends an entourage of personal attacks*

Wat™
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-11-10 17:09:44 UTC
stoicfaux
#5 - 2013-11-10 17:13:01 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
What is this Dust?

It's Spice, but without the worm poo.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-11-10 17:18:00 UTC
I thought this topic would be stupid when I first clicked on it.

But the OP actually makes a valid point.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-11-10 17:26:58 UTC
From reading the several dev posts and player posts seems like the Devs agree with the harsh nature and advise the player to trust his friend more, seems mainly it's a GM problem.
Mr. Orange
Band of Freelancers
#8 - 2013-11-10 17:31:07 UTC
I miss the old school EvE playground, where all the swings, slides, sandbox was made of metal and had nails and razor blades in it's sand.

Now it's more and more plastic and full of soft pillows... Ugh


Btw, I read the DUST forum side of this, I can't believe that CCP/GMs stepped in and undid all that work and meta game.


When a single player flipped the switch on BoB years ago due to crap game mechanics, no GMs stepped in and reversed the action...


Lame...

Idea
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-11-10 17:37:40 UTC
EVE Online: No Coercion Allowed

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-11-10 17:43:22 UTC
Because pointing out the sandbox over and over again
is in any way or form supporting your claim,
instead of making you look like a ****** for continuously pointing out the obvious.

Not only that ... you are only one guy.
If there is lots of support, then show us a threadnaught.


If you have issues with real life threats, then create harrassment petitions.



The End.
Jihad Destroyer 011011
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-11-10 17:54:58 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Because pointing out the sandbox over and over again
is in any way or form supporting your claim,
instead of making you look like a ****** for continuously pointing out the obvious.

Not only that ... you are only one guy.
If there is lots of support, then show us a threadnaught.

If you have issues with real life threats, then create harrassment petitions.

The End.


Actually we cant go into petitions here because it could be considered an infraction of the rules.

The support comes from how much CCP loves the free press they get when a meta game espionage event occurs on a much larger scale than these and are fully within the accepted rules of the game.

Your right In this post I am only one guy. And GM interference something which just started which is why this is a new topic.

Next time, please consider adding to the discussion instead of attempting to down play what can definitely be a trend away from allowable meta game play. I did not start playing in new eden to have it turn into "World of Wimp-craft".
Jihad Destroyer 011011
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-11-10 18:11:08 UTC
Jihad Destroyer 011011 wrote:
[quote=Solstice Project]Because pointing out the sandbox over and over again
is in any way or form supporting your claim,
instead of making you look like a ****** for continuously pointing out the obvious.

Not only that ... you are only one guy.
If there is lots of support, then show us a threadnaught.

If you have issues with real life threats, then create harrassment petitions.

The End.


Actually we cant go into petitions here because it could be considered an infraction of the rules.

The support comes from how much CCP loves the free press they get when a meta game espionage event occurs on a much larger scale than these and are fully within the accepted rules of the game. We were on track to create a whole series of these corps to fail except the GM interference has caused us to pause operations until we get a full response to what they were doing. Pointing out the Sandbox reference I used was using a common term most meta gamers know very well and most other players have a good idea what it means. (such as when a 4 year PVP player destroys a 2 month old miner).

You are right that In this post I am only one guy. (last time I checked only one person can post at a time) This new GM interference in corps with DUST514 Alts is something which just started in the last 24 hours which is why this is a new topic.

Next time, please consider adding to the discussion instead of attempting to down play what can definitely be a trend away from allowable meta game play. I did not start playing in New Eden to have it turn into "World of Wimp-craft".
stoicfaux
#13 - 2013-11-10 18:15:56 UTC
Interesting reads.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1473172#post1473172
CCPNullarbor wrote:
The shares and voting system is complicated and we purposefully did not include any of this in DUST. However once you have a mixed corporation you need to understand the implications of having both games involved.


On one hand we have the "spirit of EVE". On the other we have DUST. Is it really a good idea to hotdrop the Dusties (aka a FPS console game) with full blown EVE mechanics (i.e. villainy) and excessive complexity? I can see arguments for both sides; integrating with EVE means working in a cold dark untrusting universe, however, it's a damn FPS console game with a different audience, different attention span, limited user interface, etc..

Does CCP want DUST to be as cold and harsh as EVE (i.e. have the same audience, potentially a small niche) or do they want to expand their audience with DUST? If it's the latter, then CCP will need to make DUST less vulnerable (or more buffered/firewalled) to the harshness of EVE.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2013-11-10 18:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: TigerXtrm
stoicfaux wrote:
Interesting reads.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1473172#post1473172
CCPNullarbor wrote:
The shares and voting system is complicated and we purposefully did not include any of this in DUST. However once you have a mixed corporation you need to understand the implications of having both games involved.


On one hand we have the "spirit of EVE". On the other we have DUST. Is it really a good idea to hotdrop the Dusties (aka a FPS console game) with full blown EVE mechanics (i.e. villainy) and excessive complexity? I can see arguments for both sides; integrating with EVE means working in a cold dark untrusting universe, however, it's a damn FPS console game with a different audience, different attention span, limited user interface, etc..

Does CCP want DUST to be as cold and harsh as EVE (i.e. have the same audience, potentially a small niche) or do they want to expand their audience with DUST? If it's the latter, then CCP will need to make DUST less vulnerable (or more buffered/firewalled) to the harshness of EVE.



This pretty much.

Different audience requires a different approach. The average F2P FPS player isn't going to expect, let alone be part of, the EVE meta game of espionage etc. If you start allowing that stuff it's a powder keg of bad publicity waiting to happen for Dust. The 'simple' FPS players who just want to shoot stuff for half an hour will start complaining about how Dust is an unfair game how they got scammed out of their corp. Perfectly legit as it may be, a casual FPS gamer will never ever understand it.

So no, bad idea. Dust is NOT EVE. Dust is connected to EVE and nothing more. I clearly see CCP's reasoning in protecting Dust corps on this matter.

Edit: Oh and...

Quote:
GMs jumping in the way they did shows favoritism for DUST514 members which paying EVE players NEVER get.


When did all this 'all should be equal and fair' crap become a theme? It's starting to get annoying.

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Jihad Destroyer 011011
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-11-10 18:47:02 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Interesting reads.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1473172#post1473172
CCPNullarbor wrote:
The shares and voting system is complicated and we purposefully did not include any of this in DUST. However once you have a mixed corporation you need to understand the implications of having both games involved.


On one hand we have the "spirit of EVE". On the other we have DUST. Is it really a good idea to hotdrop the Dusties (aka a FPS console game) with full blown EVE mechanics (i.e. villainy) and excessive complexity? I can see arguments for both sides; integrating with EVE means working in a cold dark untrusting universe, however, it's a damn FPS console game with a different audience, different attention span, limited user interface, etc..

Does CCP want DUST to be as cold and harsh as EVE (i.e. have the same audience, potentially a small niche) or do they want to expand their audience with DUST? If it's the latter, then CCP will need to make DUST less vulnerable (or more buffered/firewalled) to the harshness of EVE.



This pretty much.

Different audience requires a different approach. The average F2P FPS player isn't going to expect, let alone be part of, the EVE meta game of espionage etc. If you start allowing that stuff it's a powder keg of bad publicity waiting to happen for Dust. The 'simple' FPS players who just want to shoot stuff for half an hour will start complaining about how Dust is an unfair game how they got scammed out of their corp. Perfectly legit as it may be, a casual FPS gamer will never ever understand it.

So no, bad idea. Dust is NOT EVE. Dust is connected to EVE and nothing more. I clearly see CCP's reasoning in protecting Dust corps on this matter.

Edit: Oh and...

Quote:
GMs jumping in the way they did shows favoritism for DUST514 members which paying EVE players NEVER get.


When did all this 'all should be equal and fair' crap become a theme? It's starting to get annoying.
Jihad Destroyer 011011
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-11-10 18:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jihad Destroyer 011011
TigerXtrm wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Interesting reads.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1473172#post1473172
CCPNullarbor wrote:
The shares and voting system is complicated and we purposefully did not include any of this in DUST. However once you have a mixed corporation you need to understand the implications of having both games involved.


On one hand we have the "spirit of EVE". On the other we have DUST. Is it really a good idea to hotdrop the Dusties (aka a FPS console game) with full blown EVE mechanics (i.e. villainy) and excessive complexity? I can see arguments for both sides; integrating with EVE means working in a cold dark untrusting universe, however, it's a damn FPS console game with a different audience, different attention span, limited user interface, etc..

Does CCP want DUST to be as cold and harsh as EVE (i.e. have the same audience, potentially a small niche) or do they want to expand their audience with DUST? If it's the latter, then CCP will need to make DUST less vulnerable (or more buffered/firewalled) to the harshness of EVE.



This pretty much.

Different audience requires a different approach. The average F2P FPS player isn't going to expect, let alone be part of, the EVE meta game of espionage etc. If you start allowing that stuff it's a powder keg of bad publicity waiting to happen for Dust. The 'simple' FPS players who just want to shoot stuff for half an hour will start complaining about how Dust is an unfair game how they got scammed out of their corp. Perfectly legit as it may be, a casual FPS gamer will never ever understand it.

So no, bad idea. Dust is NOT EVE. Dust is connected to EVE and nothing more. I clearly see CCP's reasoning in protecting Dust corps on this matter.

Edit: Oh and...

Quote:
GMs jumping in the way they did shows favoritism for DUST514 members which paying EVE players NEVER get.


When did all this 'all should be equal and fair' crap become a theme? It's starting to get annoying.


if they want to just play then there are many other FPS out there. There is a reason EVE is not a larger player base- it is harsh and cold place. EVE does however have a very smart player base, at least the ones which make it past the 2 year mark. DUST514 getting different treatment is ripe for a different kind of exploit later where DUST514 members are able to meta game but are put in a protected status.

The point of my post is GIVE leaders in both corps equal footing for shares and roles selections to manage their teams. DUST corp leaders have already robbed each other before and it was allowed. This is just a different flavor of the same thing.
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-11-10 20:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: KuroVolt
The thing is, CCP themselves have admitted that stories of corporate theft and spying is what atracts people to EVE and what makes the headlines.

So why would they actually want to STOP it from happening in Dust? A game that has a playerbase who according to their forums are impatiently waiting to be part of that ruthless universe in their own way.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Frying Doom
#18 - 2013-11-10 21:12:23 UTC
KuroVolt wrote:
So why would they actually want to STOP it from happening in Dust?

If they lose many more players, they might actually have to admit DUST 514 is a spectacular failure.

So now they are protecting what they have left, which still looks like an old rotting corpse to everyone but CCP.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#19 - 2013-11-10 21:13:20 UTC
If dust corps want to have a presence in eve, those corps need to play by eve rules. The reverse is also true.

Why are GM's coddling everyone nowadays? If you take it in the rear due to your own stupidity, expect to be sore the next day.
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-11-10 21:34:42 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
So why would they actually want to STOP it from happening in Dust?

If they lose many more players, they might actually have to admit DUST 514 is a spectacular failure.

So now they are protecting what they have left, which still looks like an old rotting corpse to everyone but CCP.


But they might actually gain members and revitalise the current members interest in the game.

Contrary to popular belief, the players that have stuck around are the ones that WANT to be part of the EVE universe, the average shooter fans have long given up on the game anyway.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
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