These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#641 - 2013-11-10 05:43:28 UTC
Again, if you want something different:

2 - 4 round clip.
Refire is 0.2 seconds
Reload is 160% of refire rate of original module.

In this setup, there is no true reload. The small clip size allows the reload to be what is traditionally the refire / cooldown. The module rapidly unloads its clip, puts out a great alpha, and then has to reload.

This is basically using current in game mechanics to implement an un-implemented one: Firing two missils at once.

Balancing the modules is primarily done through the reload cycle.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#642 - 2013-11-10 05:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
I'm available as a lore-writer, by the way. I can start immediately.

Edit: Although I'd prefer to work in the Iceland office and definitely could not work in Georgia as the heat would inflame my autism.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#643 - 2013-11-10 05:53:56 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
~Words~


That was amazing. You get a like for "rotten shark".
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#644 - 2013-11-10 06:49:51 UTC
hey Rise, Rise.. let all the naysayers keep crying.

Youre the Game Designer here. YOURE THE MAN! Go ahead and do what you want dude, you got this.

Why are you even bothering with replies - you have one thing and one thing alone to say - im doing this, cause i want to, cause i can. Thats it.

Youre anyways dismissing all arguments. Youre not giving reasonable answers - youre just saying 'blah blah blah I REALLY COMPLETELY SOULFULLY DISAGREE GOOD SIR blah blah blah'

From someone who has flown solo and PvPed enough, its a little shocking that you think this change has no bearing on

- Ammo Selection, cause 'anyways its targeted' at kinetic bonused ship's' (Really?? Caracal and ScyFi are Kinetic Bonused????)

- Do people even use FoF? (Let me guess.. hmm.. Yes. But obviously your 'usage spreadsheet' that is clearly representative of what is balanced and what is not tell you otherwise - by this consumption metric, all hail to the supreme musician Justin beiber - Beatles can suck his little noodle one)

Please show us on this doll, where the naughty Cerb touched your Ishtar.

Oh sheet, i said the "I" word. Totally balanced HAC, needs no change or discussion. Yes lets focus on RLML, theyre clearly disturbing the time continium fabric of EvE to warrant this extreme nerf.

Also, Rise came up with supaacool mechanic for weapon system, and will not listen to reason - it MUST GO LIVE! SHUDDUP! If you disagree youre an idiot and a nub.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#645 - 2013-11-10 07:57:48 UTC
I'm so glad I'm not a Caldari player.

"Cerberus was an awful, horribad ship? Rebalance around the use of RLMLs!"

2 months later...

"Oh wait, people actually fly it now? Nerf RLMLs to the ground!"

40 second reload time is the single most anti fun option I have ever heard of. No matter how you justify it being "tactical" or "thought provoking", it's just not fun. The only thought it provokes is "Wow, glad I didn't buy a Cerb."

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#646 - 2013-11-10 08:05:32 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
hey Rise, Rise.. let all the naysayers keep crying.

Youre the Game Designer here. YOURE THE MAN! Go ahead and do what you want dude, you got this.

Why are you even bothering with replies - you have one thing and one thing alone to say - im doing this, cause i want to, cause i can. Thats it.

Youre anyways dismissing all arguments. Youre not giving reasonable answers - youre just saying 'blah blah blah I REALLY COMPLETELY SOULFULLY DISAGREE GOOD SIR blah blah blah'

From someone who has flown solo and PvPed enough, its a little shocking that you think this change has no bearing on

- Ammo Selection, cause 'anyways its targeted' at kinetic bonused ship's' (Really?? Caracal and ScyFi are Kinetic Bonused????)

- Do people even use FoF? (Let me guess.. hmm.. Yes. But obviously your 'usage spreadsheet' that is clearly representative of what is balanced and what is not tell you otherwise - by this consumption metric, all hail to the supreme musician Justin beiber - Beatles can suck his little noodle one)

Please show us on this doll, where the naughty Cerb touched your Ishtar.

Oh sheet, i said the "I" word. Totally balanced HAC, needs no change or discussion. Yes lets focus on RLML, theyre clearly disturbing the time continium fabric of EvE to warrant this extreme nerf.

Also, Rise came up with supaacool mechanic for weapon system, and will not listen to reason - it MUST GO LIVE! SHUDDUP! If you disagree youre an idiot and a nub.



Let me guess, you support a dictatorship and being told what to do because you cant stand thinking for yourself.

Im betting you are one of those people who believes what you are told by authority just because they are authority. We call your type sheeple.

You obviously have no clue on missile difficulties and probably became butthurt over losing to some caracal because you assumed your frig should be able to destroy it without issue.

Go back to your cave, we dont need mindless puppets agreeing to moronic ideas and changes just because you worship Rise. 90% of the people hate this idea, and you are full blown, who cares, lets do it and nerf it all. A safer bet is you were this outspoken about the HML nerf as well knowing it was a ridiculous nerf.

Take your own advice and SHUDDUP.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#647 - 2013-11-10 08:42:13 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Seolfor wrote:
hey Rise, Rise.. let all the naysayers keep crying.

Youre the Game Designer here. YOURE THE MAN! Go ahead and do what you want dude, you got this.

Why are you even bothering with replies - you have one thing and one thing alone to say - im doing this, cause i want to, cause i can. Thats it.

Youre anyways dismissing all arguments. Youre not giving reasonable answers - youre just saying 'blah blah blah I REALLY COMPLETELY SOULFULLY DISAGREE GOOD SIR blah blah blah'

From someone who has flown solo and PvPed enough, its a little shocking that you think this change has no bearing on

- Ammo Selection, cause 'anyways its targeted' at kinetic bonused ship's' (Really?? Caracal and ScyFi are Kinetic Bonused????)

- Do people even use FoF? (Let me guess.. hmm.. Yes. But obviously your 'usage spreadsheet' that is clearly representative of what is balanced and what is not tell you otherwise - by this consumption metric, all hail to the supreme musician Justin beiber - Beatles can suck his little noodle one)

Please show us on this doll, where the naughty Cerb touched your Ishtar.

Oh sheet, i said the "I" word. Totally balanced HAC, needs no change or discussion. Yes lets focus on RLML, theyre clearly disturbing the time continium fabric of EvE to warrant this extreme nerf.

Also, Rise came up with supaacool mechanic for weapon system, and will not listen to reason - it MUST GO LIVE! SHUDDUP! If you disagree youre an idiot and a nub.



Let me guess, you support a dictatorship and being told what to do because you cant stand thinking for yourself.

Im betting you are one of those people who believes what you are told by authority just because they are authority. We call your type sheeple.

You obviously have no clue on missile difficulties and probably became butthurt over losing to some caracal because you assumed your frig should be able to destroy it without issue.

Go back to your cave, we dont need mindless puppets agreeing to moronic ideas and changes just because you worship Rise. 90% of the people hate this idea, and you are full blown, who cares, lets do it and nerf it all. A safer bet is you were this outspoken about the HML nerf as well knowing it was a ridiculous nerf.

Take your own advice and SHUDDUP.



I think you should re-read that post you just flamed. Without the beer goggles though.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#648 - 2013-11-10 08:45:54 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Seolfor wrote:
hey Rise, Rise.. let all the naysayers keep crying.

Youre the Game Designer here. YOURE THE MAN! Go ahead and do what you want dude, you got this.

Why are you even bothering with replies - you have one thing and one thing alone to say - im doing this, cause i want to, cause i can. Thats it.

Youre anyways dismissing all arguments. Youre not giving reasonable answers - youre just saying 'blah blah blah I REALLY COMPLETELY SOULFULLY DISAGREE GOOD SIR blah blah blah'

From someone who has flown solo and PvPed enough, its a little shocking that you think this change has no bearing on

- Ammo Selection, cause 'anyways its targeted' at kinetic bonused ship's' (Really?? Caracal and ScyFi are Kinetic Bonused????)

- Do people even use FoF? (Let me guess.. hmm.. Yes. But obviously your 'usage spreadsheet' that is clearly representative of what is balanced and what is not tell you otherwise - by this consumption metric, all hail to the supreme musician Justin beiber - Beatles can suck his little noodle one)

Please show us on this doll, where the naughty Cerb touched your Ishtar.

Oh sheet, i said the "I" word. Totally balanced HAC, needs no change or discussion. Yes lets focus on RLML, theyre clearly disturbing the time continium fabric of EvE to warrant this extreme nerf.

Also, Rise came up with supaacool mechanic for weapon system, and will not listen to reason - it MUST GO LIVE! SHUDDUP! If you disagree youre an idiot and a nub.



Let me guess, you support a dictatorship and being told what to do because you cant stand thinking for yourself.

Im betting you are one of those people who believes what you are told by authority just because they are authority. We call your type sheeple.

You obviously have no clue on missile difficulties and probably became butthurt over losing to some caracal because you assumed your frig should be able to destroy it without issue.

Go back to your cave, we dont need mindless puppets agreeing to moronic ideas and changes just because you worship Rise. 90% of the people hate this idea, and you are full blown, who cares, lets do it and nerf it all. A safer bet is you were this outspoken about the HML nerf as well knowing it was a ridiculous nerf.

Take your own advice and SHUDDUP.


Are you sure you're replying to the right post? P
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#649 - 2013-11-10 08:58:35 UTC
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Seolfor wrote:
hey Rise, Rise.. let all the naysayers keep crying.

Youre the Game Designer here. YOURE THE MAN! Go ahead and do what you want dude, you got this.

Why are you even bothering with replies - you have one thing and one thing alone to say - im doing this, cause i want to, cause i can. Thats it.

Youre anyways dismissing all arguments. Youre not giving reasonable answers - youre just saying 'blah blah blah I REALLY COMPLETELY SOULFULLY DISAGREE GOOD SIR blah blah blah'

From someone who has flown solo and PvPed enough, its a little shocking that you think this change has no bearing on

- Ammo Selection, cause 'anyways its targeted' at kinetic bonused ship's' (Really?? Caracal and ScyFi are Kinetic Bonused????)

- Do people even use FoF? (Let me guess.. hmm.. Yes. But obviously your 'usage spreadsheet' that is clearly representative of what is balanced and what is not tell you otherwise - by this consumption metric, all hail to the supreme musician Justin beiber - Beatles can suck his little noodle one)

Please show us on this doll, where the naughty Cerb touched your Ishtar.

Oh sheet, i said the "I" word. Totally balanced HAC, needs no change or discussion. Yes lets focus on RLML, theyre clearly disturbing the time continium fabric of EvE to warrant this extreme nerf.

Also, Rise came up with supaacool mechanic for weapon system, and will not listen to reason - it MUST GO LIVE! SHUDDUP! If you disagree youre an idiot and a nub.



Let me guess, you support a dictatorship and being told what to do because you cant stand thinking for yourself.

Im betting you are one of those people who believes what you are told by authority just because they are authority. We call your type sheeple.

You obviously have no clue on missile difficulties and probably became butthurt over losing to some caracal because you assumed your frig should be able to destroy it without issue.

Go back to your cave, we dont need mindless puppets agreeing to moronic ideas and changes just because you worship Rise. 90% of the people hate this idea, and you are full blown, who cares, lets do it and nerf it all. A safer bet is you were this outspoken about the HML nerf as well knowing it was a ridiculous nerf.

Take your own advice and SHUDDUP.


Are you sure you're replying to the right post? P


Ouch i just reread it back over and totally realized just how i screwed up..
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#650 - 2013-11-10 09:00:02 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
hey Rise, Rise.. let all the naysayers keep crying.

Youre the Game Designer here. YOURE THE MAN! Go ahead and do what you want dude, you got this.

Why are you even bothering with replies - you have one thing and one thing alone to say - im doing this, cause i want to, cause i can. Thats it.

Youre anyways dismissing all arguments. Youre not giving reasonable answers - youre just saying 'blah blah blah I REALLY COMPLETELY SOULFULLY DISAGREE GOOD SIR blah blah blah'

From someone who has flown solo and PvPed enough, its a little shocking that you think this change has no bearing on

- Ammo Selection, cause 'anyways its targeted' at kinetic bonused ship's' (Really?? Caracal and ScyFi are Kinetic Bonused????)

- Do people even use FoF? (Let me guess.. hmm.. Yes. But obviously your 'usage spreadsheet' that is clearly representative of what is balanced and what is not tell you otherwise - by this consumption metric, all hail to the supreme musician Justin beiber - Beatles can suck his little noodle one)

Please show us on this doll, where the naughty Cerb touched your Ishtar.

Oh sheet, i said the "I" word. Totally balanced HAC, needs no change or discussion. Yes lets focus on RLML, theyre clearly disturbing the time continium fabric of EvE to warrant this extreme nerf.

Also, Rise came up with supaacool mechanic for weapon system, and will not listen to reason - it MUST GO LIVE! SHUDDUP! If you disagree youre an idiot and a nub.


My apologies, i totally read it the wrong way.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#651 - 2013-11-10 09:18:18 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:

~*beautiful words*~


:911:

...murrikuh
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#652 - 2013-11-10 09:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
Some additional comments, if Mr. Rise would like to consider:

Caracal with triple BCS, RLMLs
[Btw Rise-san, its NOT a Kinetic Bonused ship, it hasnt been, for a while broski]

Youre suggesting:

- 409 dps with Scourge Fury, for 18 volleys
v/s Current
- 298 dps with Scourge Fury, for 80 volleys

So thats ~20k damage and then you hit the 40 sec reload. You CANNOT change ammo once you begin.

Your grand suggestion is to split the launchers into 2 groups and alternate fire. Gotcha.

409/298 = 1.3724
1.3724/2 = 0.686

Say 69%

So new RLML launchers are a 31% nerf to current dps.

As a sidenote, this above Caracal with Light Missile launchers does 198 dps with scourge fury. (with a 50 clip size)
198/298 = 0.66

Say 66%

So, what are you trying to do here sir?


If your problem is the Cerb - limit its bonus, like the Sac, to HAM and HMLs

If your problem is the Light Missiles - reduce their damage (which will fix the mega Talwar usage also, not to mention linked Condors and soon to arrive Crows)

If your problem is the RLML/RHML launcher - nerf its RoF by X%

Why go about in this arbit cute manner?


And if still, youre self-obsessed with your 'new innovative idea', then you need the increase the burst potential, increase the clip size and reduce the reload time, to make the RLML/RHML not totally crap.

Do they really need a 30% nerf to damage?

Please feel free to correct my math, anyone.
dreynar swyglou
Riemannian Manifold Torus
#653 - 2013-11-10 09:47:05 UTC
40 sec is ridiculous for any weapon where switching ammo is needed depending on new ships that might appear on field.
Kitfox Shachi
Bunyip Hunters
#654 - 2013-11-10 10:01:27 UTC
I can understand you want a frontloaded missile delivered mechanic in game. sort of like a stealth bomber.
You come in drop your load and warp out.
because after 50 seconds of dps i sure as hell am not standing on grid waiting for a reload. im warping out.
even stealth bombers have 30 seconds to wait for recloak.

BUT why ruin an existing item. RLML has it place in shooting defenders, FoF and doing solo levl 1-2-3 missions with a Caracal or Cerberus. now this is going to kill that option.

Why not make a totaly new module. call it Rapid Fire Light Bomb Launcher and Rapid Fire Heavy Bomb Launcher.
where they do what you want and take 40 seconds to reload.

will bring it indline with the already present bomb launcher mechanic except these bombs will be targetted, you can even make them do minor splash damage for extra love.

But please consider missioneers rely on conistsnet dps not burst and this will ruin us.
KatanTharkay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#655 - 2013-11-10 10:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: KatanTharkay
I'm sorry if this was already said, or it's unlikely to be implemented in a fair amount of time, but what about keeping the reload time at the value CCP is happy with but making the ammo switch be instant like lasers? Also ammo switching will change only the type and not the quantity of missiles already loaded.
Ex: if you have 10 kinetic missiles loaded, you will have 10 thermal missiles after the ammo switch.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#656 - 2013-11-10 10:16:07 UTC
Ion Blacknight wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, so far I feel like I'm seeing 3 major areas of complaint, alongside a lot of people who think this will be a good change. Those areas are:

  • 40s reload is boring and will be miserable to use please don't do it
  • Switching ammo types (other damage types or to FOF(does anyone actually use fof?)) will be very difficult which is key for missile users
  • This is a nerf to RLML and I love them so please don't do it

    • I'm not convinced at all by the first complaint. As I've said before, this delay creates new kimds of decision making, it creates spikes of tension in fights rather than a flat amount of damage moving around and beyond those things it can be completely mitigated if you want. As others have pointed out, simply splitting your launchers into two groups and alternating them means you are never stuck in reload. It also means you lose the advantage of having your damage front-loaded into a very high DPS number. Still, if you can completely bypass this 'downside' I don't see how you can argue that this mechanic alone ruins the system.

    I commented earlier on the missile switching - I think it is a valid complaint and I'd like to find a work-around for it as an iteration but I don't think it's a show-stopper. Several of the ships using these systems are kinetic bonused which means you don't switch that often. You still have time to switch on the way to a fight based on what damage type might be best. You still have the option to switch as you run out of charges and would be reloading anyway. But again, this is a legit complaint and I want to look into it.

    Most of the complaints about it being a straight up nerf make me feel like going ahead with the old plan and leaving RLML in their current state would have been a mistake. I think most of you feeling this way are just disappointed with the idea of losing a slightly over-powered weapon system, which is understandable. Please keep in mind that this change represents a 15-20% damage drop over long fights but offers a new advantage in trade. I suspect that ships like FW Caracals with RLML will remain very strong. Also, if they don't, it's very easy to tune the reload time down slightly or the rate of fire up slightly to bring them into balance and we would absolutely watch that and make necessary adjustments. I would be extremely unhappy if the numbers were bad and rapid launchers disappeared from Caracals and Fleet Scythes completely.

    Broader complaints about missiles vs turrets or training time often have merit, but they represent much bigger projects that we fully intend to take on, just not during this rebalance. We hear you though and hopefully we can start working on major module balance projects in the coming releases as we are closing in on finishing our first lap of all the ships in the game.

    Hope this answers some of your concerns


    This does not answer the concern of why you are implementing something no one wants to replace something no one is complaining about.


    ^this
    To mare
    Advanced Technology
    #657 - 2013-11-10 10:20:48 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    And rapid laucnhers were the best weapons for cruiser solo activity

    And this is why they are nerfing them.
    They probably felt it wasnt totaly right for a small missile to be the weapon of choice for medium target.

    I dont like the change because as everyone pointed out its a nerf to solo pvp but i can see why they are doing this.
    On a funny note they are making a weapon system that is already too good at taking down smaller targets even better, i think if this go live we will see alot of frig user tears.
    This will probably break more things than what it fixes.
    Kane Fenris
    NWP
    #658 - 2013-11-10 10:42:59 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Here is the problem with balancing missiles: warning, this link has algebra in it. You have to copy and paste the link, the eve forum warning thing messes it up

    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88359&currentpage=1521#30415

    tl;dr the base stats on missiles are completely ****** and need a total rework. Signature is not nearly as important as velocity, since almost all missile damage is velocity limited



    you grasp that basically he showed that most of the mechanism is balanced?
    yes webs are better than painter cause they are harder to apply?


    your thesis that exp radius is meaningless to exp velocity is also very wrong.....it depends on usage
    you can show useing the same math that rigor rigs are nearly always better than flare rigs.

    the problem of missile mechanics is only that the bandwidth of dmg distibution between really fast and slow ship is not in balance with excessive speeds many ships can reach nowdays
    Onictus
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #659 - 2013-11-10 10:57:56 UTC
    To mare wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    And rapid laucnhers were the best weapons for cruiser solo activity

    And this is why they are nerfing them.
    They probably felt it wasnt totaly right for a small missile to be the weapon of choice for medium target.





    They should probably make medium missiles not crap then,
    xHxHxAOD
    Hedion University
    Amarr Empire
    #660 - 2013-11-10 10:59:30 UTC
    imo a weapon system should not be based on hoping and preying that said weapon system is doing what it is suppose to do in 1 clip.if u really want to balance rlms then nerf the damage and/or rof by say 5% or so and then buff hml damage and/or rof by 5-10% or a mix of the 2 for hml.