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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#601 - 2013-11-09 23:27:08 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

PS : and i'll put that simply, because people don't really understand this I think. Consider two RLML with no dps difference between the two (I explain here the burst dps thing and discard the dps nerf) :
- case 1 : RLML with standard reload time : X dps over 70s + 10s reload = Xdps over 80s ;
- case 2 : RLML with front loaded (burst) dps : X*2 dps over 40s + 40s reload = Xdps over 80s.
Not considering the dps nerf, the front loaded dps thing can actually be canceled if you divide your guns in two groups. That way, you retain the old functionality of sustain dps, but you also have a new functionality of burst dps if you need it.

In that case, it is far better to just nerf the RLML ROF by lets say 5% and introduce a completely new missile system with burst dps and longer reload. You can do something similar by adding new burst missiles as well. All this has been said so many times but it seems you're skimming instead of reading.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#602 - 2013-11-09 23:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

PS : and i'll put that simply, because people don't really understand this I think. Consider two RLML with no dps difference between the two (I explain here the burst dps thing and discard the dps nerf) :
- case 1 : RLML with standard reload time : X dps over 70s + 10s reload = Xdps over 80s ;
- case 2 : RLML with front loaded (burst) dps : X*2 dps over 40s + 40s reload = Xdps over 80s.
Not considering the dps nerf, the front loaded dps thing can actually be canceled if you divide your guns in two groups. That way, you retain the old functionality of sustain dps, but you also have a new functionality of burst dps if you need it.

In that case, it is far better to just nerf the RLML ROF by lets say 5% and introduce a completely new missile system with burst dps and longer reload. You can do something similar by adding new burst missiles as well. All this has been said so many times but it seems you're skimming instead of reading.

Why making two different thing when one of them can do both things fine ? If the reload thing is so disturbing for you, you can make two groups of weapons and use the second while the first is reloading. It's exactly what people do with the ASB, so it's not something people aren't able to do.

This aversion for the burst ability is just mindboggling considering how anyone pretending knowing anything about pvp should know the value of this burst ability.
BBQ FTW
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#603 - 2013-11-09 23:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: BBQ FTW
this is perfectly acceptable if you're like 90% of ******** pilots and only carry scourge fury in your cargohold.

Since it doesn't look like you've ever flown an RLML ship I will try to explain this in terms you can understand. Assume you are flying an thorax (scram web cap booster mwd plate), with the "KIL2 HEAVY ION BLASTER II" which has good frontloaded dps but has the very 'insignificant' drawback of having a 40s reload time.

Assume you've cleverly solved the problem by splitting your guns into 2 groups and cramming VOID MEDIUM CHARGE into both, u engage another armor cruiser, also with scram web is now kiting you at 7+ km.

Luckily you split your guns so clearly you've solved the problem of waiting 40s so you can actually load null and hit the guy, right?
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#604 - 2013-11-09 23:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
@ Bouh REvetoile:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Read that link and understand.

You are a pvp noob, with no skills- trying to argue the merit of a weapon system you have no experience using. YOu have pathetic PvP experience and understanding when compared to the big names in this thread (Harari, Dalikah) for example. You are so out of touch with the realities of the current pvp meta, and your arguments so obtuse- that they have no place here.

Just stop, you pathetic troll. I have more kills in a single month, than you do in your entire pvp career. You are completely out of your league here.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#605 - 2013-11-09 23:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

But if you are relegated to killboard epeen as argument, you are a lot worse than what I expected.

You can't be serious Smile Genos are often fighting outnumbered and outgunned - everyone knows that.

You understand something when you are able to explain it. You can be good at something and don't understand it ; and you can understand something without being good at it.

And "not good enough killboard" is not an argument, except for the lazy and the stupids.

BTW, CCP Rise and Fozzy (and certainly some others too) have a lot of pvp experience, yet people deny them it only because of their tag, so really, nobody here actually care about pvp experience or actual global vision of the game and the killboard argument is only a way to dishonnor someone and don't have to bother arguing with him. Forum pvp 101, alias Troll initiation lvl1.

PS : and i'll put that simply, because people don't really understand this I think. Consider two RLML with no dps difference between the two (I explain here the burst dps thing and discard the dps nerf) :
- case 1 : RLML with standard reload time : X dps over 70s + 10s reload = Xdps over 80s ;
- case 2 : RLML with front loaded (burst) dps : X*2 dps over 40s + 40s reload = Xdps over 80s.
Not considering the dps nerf, the front loaded dps thing can actually be canceled if you divide your guns in two groups. That way, you retain the old functionality of sustain dps, but you also have a new functionality of burst dps if you need it.



One wine sipping, cheese eating, autistic fa*got against the combined alt army of the Hatchery. Well played sir. I applaud your efforts for I would not argue any points. I would straight insult dudes. Which is my favourite thing to do on the forums.


As for the noble comments with regard to ignoring some player because they're not considered good. While not ret@rded reasoning. What is is ignoring or insulting 99% of the player base. Which I applaud, find amusing and believe will clearly help in every argument (I truly believe this). Still, if 99% of the players in game are bad and I count myself among them because I am a woman of the people. Then some of those in this thread who consider themselves the 1% are in the minority and DO NOT PAY ENOUGH TAXES for representatives of CCP to take seriously. I for one welcome the REVOLUTION lead by brave and "bad players" like Bouh Revetoile. Who is fighting for OUR FREEDOMS.

CAN I GET A GOOD FIGHT?

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#606 - 2013-11-09 23:45:49 UTC
The burst ability is quite nice, provided you can finish what you came to do before having to reload.

If you have to reload, the burst ability is... well.. not so nice.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#607 - 2013-11-09 23:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Why making two different thing when one of them can do both things fine ? If the reload thing is so disturbing for you, you can make two groups of weapons and use the second while the first is reloading. It's exactly what people do with the ASB, so it's not something people aren't able to do.

No, why are you so stubborn? ASB are way more powerful than regular T2 SB so longer reload makes sense and you still have a choice to use old SB along with cap booster whenever it suits you better. Here, proposed burst RLML with split launchers are in longer run so much WEAKER than current RLML, which means your and CCP Rise arguments are invalid. This way we are either forced to use some ****** divided dps or forced to wait 40 seconds to reload - the emphasis is on FORCED.

What happens to PvE, does anyone of you even care? Bears are having high hopes to use RHML on their Ravens etc. and I can assure you whey won't be too excited reloading for 40 sec. every now and then.

Don't get me wrong, I don't speak for myself here - I have 23m SP in gunnery and my second toon has plans to do station games, where having Cerb with burst dps against frigs will be really devastating.

Quote:

This aversion for the burst ability is just mindboggling considering how anyone pretending knowing anything about pvp should know the value of this burst ability.

No problem, just give us a CHOICE not to use it if we don't want it sometimes or most of the times or ever for that matter. Just that, a small thing, isn't it?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#608 - 2013-11-10 00:15:50 UTC
BBQ FTW wrote:
this is perfectly acceptable if you're like 90% of ******** pilots and only carry scourge fury in your cargohold.

Since it doesn't look like you've ever flown an RLML ship I will try to explain this in terms you can understand. Assume you are flying an thorax (scram web cap booster mwd plate), with the "KIL2 HEAVY ION BLASTER II" which has good frontloaded dps but has the very 'insignificant' drawback of having a 40s reload time.

Assume you've cleverly solved the problem by splitting your guns into 2 groups and cramming VOID MEDIUM CHARGE into both, u engage another armor cruiser, also with scram web is now kiting you at 7+ km.

Luckily you split your guns so clearly you've solved the problem of waiting 40s so you can actually load null and hit the guy, right?

If you read carefuly, you'll see that CCP Rise already acknowledged this problem.

Alvatore DiMarco[/q wrote:
The burst ability is quite nice, provided you can finish what you came to do before having to reload.

If you have to reload, the burst ability is... well.. not so nice.
In fact, the edge case is when you need between 19 and 24 missiles to kill your target (25 with 25% rof bonus, maybe 26-27 with lots of BCU). In this case the old RLML is better than the new, and there might be another window at the second reload, but the fight would need to last more than 4 minutes.

On the other hand, you will be more effective against active tanked ennemies and need less time to kill the targets you can kill than before.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#609 - 2013-11-10 00:19:03 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
No, why are you so stubborn? ASB are way more powerful than regular T2 SB so longer reload makes sense and you still have a choice to use old SB along with cap booster whenever it suits you better. Here, proposed burst RLML with split launchers are in longer run so much WEAKER than current RLML, which means your and CCP Rise arguments are invalid. This way we are either forced to use some ****** divided dps or forced to wait 40 seconds to reload - the emphasis is on FORCED.

What happens to PvE, does anyone of you even care? Bears are having high hopes to use RHML on their Ravens etc. and I can assure you whey won't be too excited reloading for 40 sec. every now and then.

You still don't understand that there is actually a nerf of RLML : they lose 20% sustain dps.

But that's not because of the 40s reload, that's because they deserve it.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#610 - 2013-11-10 00:21:50 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

On the other hand, you will be more effective against active tanked ennemies and need less time to kill the targets you can kill than before.

Active tanked frigates yes (not even all of them!) but hardly active tanked cruisers (repping takes time you know). The question here is - how many frigates before reload?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#611 - 2013-11-10 00:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
No, why are you so stubborn? ASB are way more powerful than regular T2 SB so longer reload makes sense and you still have a choice to use old SB along with cap booster whenever it suits you better. Here, proposed burst RLML with split launchers are in longer run so much WEAKER than current RLML, which means your and CCP Rise arguments are invalid. This way we are either forced to use some ****** divided dps or forced to wait 40 seconds to reload - the emphasis is on FORCED.

What happens to PvE, does anyone of you even care? Bears are having high hopes to use RHML on their Ravens etc. and I can assure you whey won't be too excited reloading for 40 sec. every now and then.

You still don't understand that there is actually a nerf of RLML : they lose 20% sustain dps.

But that's not because of the 40s reload, that's because they deserve it.



The largest issue is not simply the long term dps nerf . Its that the load between each relaod isnot enough for you to get rid of 1 enemy ship , and that is CRUTIAL. If you coudl kil a ship before reload at least your small gang continues even, they lost one and you are lost for 40 seocnds. But if you do not kill it and start to reload.. suddenly your ship lost 1 ship.. and their gang none .

On a 2 man gang or solo that is HUGE.

Increase the proposed charges to 22 and at least you woudl be sure to kill a frigate tackler and coudl even kill a non tanked cruiser.

LEss than that and you are detrimental to gang.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#612 - 2013-11-10 00:24:12 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

You still don't understand that there is actually a nerf of RLML : they lose 20% sustain dps.

Oh, I don't understand? Silly me, what was I thinking all this time. Nvm, I'll stop posting here. Enjoy your nerf, missile haters!
BBQ FTW
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#613 - 2013-11-10 00:32:40 UTC
at the end of the day, this doesn't affect people who use RLMLs and have the SP to easily switch to other antisupport platforms

sucks to be a poor pleb that can't buy SP on character bazaar though Bear
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#614 - 2013-11-10 00:33:11 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
No, why are you so stubborn? ASB are way more powerful than regular T2 SB so longer reload makes sense and you still have a choice to use old SB along with cap booster whenever it suits you better. Here, proposed burst RLML with split launchers are in longer run so much WEAKER than current RLML, which means your and CCP Rise arguments are invalid. This way we are either forced to use some ****** divided dps or forced to wait 40 seconds to reload - the emphasis is on FORCED.

What happens to PvE, does anyone of you even care? Bears are having high hopes to use RHML on their Ravens etc. and I can assure you whey won't be too excited reloading for 40 sec. every now and then.

You still don't understand that there is actually a nerf of RLML : they lose 20% sustain dps.

But that's not because of the 40s reload, that's because they deserve it.


There's no way on earth that RLMLs have 20% too much dps. Just because they are better than other cruiser size launcher options doesn't make them uber-overpowered. I'm amazed how missiles actually being good is always seen as them being overpowered. Almost every missile system in the game is underpowered at the moment. Balancing against a sub-par standard is bad game design.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#615 - 2013-11-10 00:37:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The largest issue is not simply the long term dps nerf . Its that the load between each relaod isnot enough for you to get rid of 1 enemy ship , and that is CRUTIAL. If you coudl kil a ship before reload at least your small gang continues even, they lost one and you are lost for 40 seocnds. But if you do not kill it and start to reload.. suddenly your ship lost 1 ship.. and their gang none .

On a 2 man gang or solo that is HUGE.

Increase the proposed charges to 22 and at least you woudl be sure to kill a frigate tackler and coudl even kill a non tanked cruiser.

LEss than that and you are detrimental to gang.
That's exactly what I said about the edge case.
Yet, 18 volleys of missiles from a caracal will do 14850 damage.

AB and T2 frigates can be a problem, but that's far from what you are saying it to be. The window is worth 5kehp and I doubt many frigates fall inside it, but extending the magazine a bit is worth considering.
Gorski Car
#616 - 2013-11-10 00:44:25 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Fun fact: A cerb with normal light missile launchers will do MORE sustained dps than a cerb fit with rapid light missile launchers

Collect this post
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#617 - 2013-11-10 00:57:40 UTC
Heres a situation that is not an edge case scenario:

You are in a caracal with rlms, you engage an enemy cruiser, while shooting this enemy a frigate suddenly lands on field. Because of the new rlms, you do not have enough missiles to be able to kill the frigate straight up and must now wait an additional 40 seconds before you can remove tackle. This forces you to either immediately leave the fight or likely die as the frigate comes in and scrams you while you have no way to respond to it because you've only got a half dozen shots which wont kill it and then a 40 second reload.

Yes rise did say that was a concern, he also specifically stated that it wasn't a deal breaker and only introduced 'interesting and tense' play.

Why in the world would I want to fly rlms under this change outside of some very specific situations when I could very easily be completely and arbitrarily forced to disengage or die should I get caught with a low clip of ammo? Sure it would be overpowered vs t1 frigates but against cruisers and in any situation where I need to swap targets or god forbid swap ammo I am essentially flying a useless ship. What is the point of flying it compared to an omen or a rail thorax? All of these ships do well vs tackle but the rlm ship will have so many limitations that it just isn't something you can rely on to do its job well when compared to these other ships.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#618 - 2013-11-10 01:15:19 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

BTW, CCP Rise and Fozzy (and certainly some others too) have a lot of pvp experience, yet people deny them it only because of their tag, so really, nobody here actually care about pvp experience or actual global vision of the game and the killboard argument is only a way to dishonnor someone and don't have to bother arguing with him. Forum pvp 101, alias Troll initiation lvl1.

It is because of their PVP backgrounds that I hold them to a higher standard than I do other CCP devs. They both *should* know better on particular things, but you can definitely see their pride in their pet projects/mechanics overwhelming the depth of their knowledge and practical experience.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#619 - 2013-11-10 01:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Rise wrote:
  • Switching ammo types (other damage types or to FOF(does anyone actually use fof?)) will be very difficult which is key for missile users

    • I commented earlier on the missile switching - I think it is a valid complaint and I'd like to find a work-around for it as an iteration but I don't think it's a show-stopper. Several of the ships using these systems are kinetic bonused which means you don't switch that often. You still have time to switch on the way to a fight based on what damage type might be best. You still have the option to switch as you run out of charges and would be reloading anyway. But again, this is a legit complaint and I want to look into it.

    • Can we please get Faction FoF missiles added back to the LP store for Rubicon? (yes, some of us use them)
    • The 40-second reload is fine, but the ammunition capacity is a tad low. If you increase this to 25 for a T2 RLML and 30 for a Caldari Faction RLML this will probably balance out better (ditto for RHMLs, with the same % increase).
    • For missile switching, is it possible to implement a 10-second swap-out with the caveat that only the type and not the quantity of ammunition is replaced?

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #620 - 2013-11-10 01:26:02 UTC
    hahahahhahahahahahahhaha...

    Okay seriously I thought that was the 'one line bad idea thread' but after reading a little further down I realized, it wasn't.

    I think April is still to come somewhat next year and I think there was no other 'fools' day other than April 1st.
    I also get that some developers favor some factions ships more than others but shouldn't you be subjective to all of them?

    So let me sum this up,
    you want rapid light missile launchers become some ancillery s*** launchers with less ammo and talk about phantasy dps values?

    I do not remember anyone complaining about those in the last six years when all missiles got this terrible tracking stuff added to them.
    But before they added that, everyone was complaing about the omg-bbq-super-duper-op-i-poo-my-pants-solo-pwnmobile the Raven.

    You should also know that rapid light missile launchers are 'as is' for about six years now and only recently someone figured out they were doing okay even in ship to ship combat.
    I also remember that nobody used any of them in ship to ship combat at all and you were trolled upon when asking about using them in ship to ship combat at all.

    Then all of a sudden the Drake become the unbeatable solo-bbq-ftw-pwnmobile and must been stopped at all cost.

    Now that someone figured out that you can use light missiles in ship to ship combat at all they must be stopped too, right?


    I will tell you, how this will go:
    for one week every yeay-sayer will use them once, will find out that its terrible and never use them again.
    The smarter ones that say no right now will already know how that will turn out and don't want anything to do with them.

    So before my fuses all burn again I say this,
    don't touch anything that isn't broken.

    If you think that there is an 'imbalance' between anything you don't like, ask someone with experience in using them if you are on to something and don't make any acillery launchers that nobody wants.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever