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ECCM seems to be quite useless....
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Jonas Staal
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-11-08 11:41:05 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death.


Aren't ECM-ships typically far away?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-11-08 11:48:16 UTC
Jonas Staal wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death.


Aren't ECM-ships typically far away?

If its a solo fight vs an ecm ship and its far away you can simply warp off. If its you solo vs a gang you're dead anyway. If its you and your gang vs another gang then you can damp the ecm ship, or you can snipe the ecm ship or you can get a warp in to him...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-11-08 12:06:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.

People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp?



Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#24 - 2013-11-08 13:36:43 UTC
ECCM just needs some bonus to apply when not being jammed, ike reducing sigradiusor similiar. Having a module to be fit for and exclusively for defending against jamming is just bad, other 'defenses' against ewar also don't turn useless, once the one ewartype you fitted against isn't there <.<
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#25 - 2013-11-08 15:13:47 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.

People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp?



Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.


Celestis w/4 Damps applied with lock range to a Harb;

7.82K Range.

Celestis w/4 Damps applied with lock range to a Harb that has 1 Scripted Sebo;

12.52K Range.


Thats quite a lot different to being jammed.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-11-08 15:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.

People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp?



Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.


Celestis w/4 Damps applied with lock range to a Harb;

7.82K Range.

Celestis w/4 Damps applied with lock range to a Harb that has 1 Scripted Sebo;

12.52K Range.


Thats quite a lot different to being jammed.

Actually 3 damps + 2 inverted signal field projector rigs applied to a Harb by a Celestis damps the Harb to 10.6k. 4 damps the Harb down to 8.6k, less then the range of a scram. There is no missed damp that allows you to blap the Celestis.

In comparison, a Blackbird with 2 signal distortion amps and 2 partical dispersion augs jamming an ECCM fitted Harb gets a jam 25.6 % of the time. So 74.4% of the time it applies its racial jammer to your harb it fails and you get to blap its 6k ehp. If it tries to use its non-racial jammer it fails 92% of the time. If it has a multispectral backup that fails 83% of the time.

I know what I'd rather be using, Celestis with damps :)

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-11-08 16:52:47 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.


Damps also can't be two-boxed on an alt with two button clicks, then completely ignored. If you're damped and go for the damping ship, they actually have to switch back over and do some piloting on it to avoid losing it, with a Falcon it's totally unnecessary.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#28 - 2013-11-08 20:09:38 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.

People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp?



Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.



Neuting, Damps, and TD all have effective hard counters and/or only effect half the ships they come across. Jamming effects all subcaps.
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-11-09 11:17:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckett Firesnake
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death.

So it only seems like its OP, its somewhat like the guy who gets robbed by a person of another race and then thinks that that race are all robbers because he failed to notice the 99.9% of that race who didn't rob him. We always notice when things go wrong but not when they don't.

The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.

People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp?


In fact, ECM is not so overpowered in fleet vs fleet pvp. But when you solo, a falcon means most of the time death. The only way to deal with it is to run far from it to begin engagement... But with a little luck, a falcon that pass a cycle and you lose your scramble, your web, your tracking, disrupt, your turrets... Really bad.

The damp and the neutra are really different because at first it is not matter of luck.
The second reason is that even if you are damped you can lock ships that are near you and fight against them, Neutra don't stop your auto-canons, or your missles (your lasers and your blasters yes but you will have a capacitor booster most of the time) .

It is not the point of this thread though. This thread is about the fact that even with three ECCM modules you can be permajammed by e Blackbird... I find this really hard.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-11-09 11:27:49 UTC
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I was of the opinion that ECM was an I WIN BUTTON or 5 however after skilling up a Falcon and testing it out, yes there are times when you will permajam, however there are also times when you will miss a jam or two. At under 10k ehp, 20 seconds of no jamming is death.

So it only seems like its OP, its somewhat like the guy who gets robbed by a person of another race and then thinks that that race are all robbers because he failed to notice the 99.9% of that race who didn't rob him. We always notice when things go wrong but not when they don't.

The same thing can happen with an Arazu, except it can 100% damp you down to 5k permanantly and 100% reliably, or a curse that can tracking disrupt you 100% and nuet your cap 100% of the time.

People don't like sitting there unable to relock but the above 2 ships do exactly the same thing... 100% of the time... why don't they ruin pvp?


In fact, ECM is not so overpowered in fleet vs fleet pvp. But when you solo, a falcon means most of the time death. The only way to deal with it is to run far from it to begin engagement... But with a little luck, a falcon that pass a cycle and you lose your scramble, your web, your tracking, disrupt, your turrets... Really bad.

It is not the point of this thread. This thread is about the fact that even with three ECCM modules you can be permajammed by e Blackbird... I find this really hard.

Sorry but I don't believe you. If you had 3 ECCM on you would have a 90ish sensor strength. Even if the Blackbird had every mid filled with Radar jammer's the odds of jamming you are less than 50%. Its likely that he had 1 of each and perhaps a multispec which puts his jamming chance against you at 15%. Unless you died in 2 seconds its very unlikely you were permajammed the whole fight. Its statistically bullcrap.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-11-09 11:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckett Firesnake
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Sorry but I don't believe you. If you had 3 ECCM on you would have a 90ish sensor strength. Even if the Blackbird had every mid filled with Radar jammer's the odds of jamming you are less than 50%. Its likely that he had 1 of each and perhaps a multispec which puts his jamming chance against you at 15%. Unless you died in 2 seconds its very unlikely you were permajammed the whole fight. Its statistically bullcrap.

You are right there was a moment of about 6 seconds where I was not jammed between two cycles.
The fight was not very long.
Not really useful information.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-11-09 11:36:25 UTC
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Sorry but I don't believe you. If you had 3 ECCM on you would have a 90ish sensor strength. Even if the Blackbird had every mid filled with Radar jammer's the odds of jamming you are less than 50%. Its likely that he had 1 of each and perhaps a multispec which puts his jamming chance against you at 15%. Unless you died in 2 seconds its very unlikely you were permajammed the whole fight. Its statistically bullcrap.

You are right there was a moment of about 6 seconds where I was not jammed between two cycles.
The fight was not very long.
Not really useful information.

So basically he got one or two jams on you while you were being ganked and you think it wasn't fair?? Fair enough. Must remember though, jamming is the role of the Blackbird and it doesn't even do it very well anymore so I can't see the problem.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-11-09 11:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckett Firesnake
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Sorry but I don't believe you. If you had 3 ECCM on you would have a 90ish sensor strength. Even if the Blackbird had every mid filled with Radar jammer's the odds of jamming you are less than 50%. Its likely that he had 1 of each and perhaps a multispec which puts his jamming chance against you at 15%. Unless you died in 2 seconds its very unlikely you were permajammed the whole fight. Its statistically bullcrap.

You are right there was a moment of about 6 seconds where I was not jammed between two cycles.
The fight was not very long.
Not really useful information.

So basically he got one or two jams on you while you were being ganked and you think it wasn't fair?? Fair enough. Must remember though, jamming is the role of the Blackbird and it doesn't even do it very well anymore so I can't see the problem.

Of course he had all of his ECM on me during this fight.
After verification the fight began @ 17.08.12
The whole fleet was on me @17.08.38
I had the oportunity to target @ 17.09.39 and failed to finish the targeting.
Then I lost the ship @17.10.45

Not so short fight in fact....

And yes I hoped that 80 of sensor would prevent me to be permajammed
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-11-09 13:25:55 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Because they give the ILLUSION of a chance. It's entirely psychological.


Damps also can't be two-boxed on an alt with two button clicks, then completely ignored. If you're damped and go for the damping ship, they actually have to switch back over and do some piloting on it to avoid losing it, with a Falcon it's totally unnecessary.


As a damp and an ECM pilot I assure you, damp is far more fire and forget and much more dangerous.

People constantly believe it matters because 'you can get closer' as if the damp boat is not moving. Sure, you can chase them, but you just die tired. Frankly I prefer flying damps because they're better: devastating and 100% reliable. Oh, and they can actually fit a tank and still be effective and reliable.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-11-09 13:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
I hate ECM. It ruins SOLO pvp, it is only about luck or not luck. It is only my opinion.
But I would like to show this: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20358161
I was perma jammed during il this "fight"...
How many ECCM should I put on my ship?
Using three slots of your ship to fit Three ECCM modules it means sacrifice tank, damage, and more...
For what? Nothing...
Seriously there is a problem.

How is there a problem? You have a ship there dedicated to keeping you jammed sacrificing 5 mid slots JUST FOR THAT. You think it's unfair when someone sacrifices 5 mid slots on one specific thing which has a +-30% to work?

You lost a 4v1, not like it would have mattered anyway. You got ganked. Get over it.
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-11-09 15:41:26 UTC
I'm not going to be going over what all other people have said here but I would rather solo a falcon then do a blob v blob against one of your Goon Celestis fleet where they damp you down to 1m targeting range, because the chances of landing a sensor damp are much higher than an ECM.

Also requesting a lock as you already have started a duplicate thread.

Tisk tisk Mr. Goon . . . I know you want something fixed but breaking the rules is no way to accomplish this.

Honor is a fools prize. [I]Glory is of no use to the dead.[/I]

Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-11-09 17:17:25 UTC
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:
I'm not going to be going over what all other people have said here but I would rather solo a falcon then do a blob v blob against one of your Goon Celestis fleet where they damp you down to 1m targeting range, because the chances of landing a sensor damp are much higher than an ECM.

Also requesting a lock as you already have started a duplicate thread.

Tisk tisk Mr. Goon . . . I know you want something fixed but breaking the rules is no way to accomplish this.


If I was not goon my argument would be better?

I don't see waht you mean.

If I was playing only blobs do you think I would bother about ECM?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#38 - 2013-11-09 20:49:33 UTC
If you were in a small gang even remotely as prepared as you for ECM you would have won. So it seems to me while ECM and ECCM is obnoxious, it is small gang vs solo that is 'broken' here. Even a second ship would have tipped the scales in your favor.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#39 - 2013-11-10 09:27:14 UTC
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
I hate ECM. It ruins SOLO pvp, it is only about luck or not luck. It is only my opinion.

But I would like to show this: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20358161

I was perma jammed during il this "fight"...

How many ECCM should I put on my ship?
Using three slots of your ship to fit Three ECCM modules it means sacrifice tank, damage, and more...
For what? Nothing...

Seriously there is a problem.


ECCM is some of the most overpowered **** in the game. To make it balanced relative to other ECM/ECCM types it should only provide a 60% boost to sensor strength but no it grants + 100% which makes a jammers job 3x harder... 300% net benefit.
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-11-10 12:05:28 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Beckett Firesnake wrote:
I hate ECM. It ruins SOLO pvp, it is only about luck or not luck. It is only my opinion.

But I would like to show this: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20358161

I was perma jammed during il this "fight"...

How many ECCM should I put on my ship?
Using three slots of your ship to fit Three ECCM modules it means sacrifice tank, damage, and more...
For what? Nothing...

Seriously there is a problem.


ECCM is some of the most overpowered **** in the game. To make it balanced relative to other ECM/ECCM types it should only provide a 60% boost to sensor strength but no it grants + 100% which makes a jammers job 3x harder... 300% net benefit.


Not enough to not be jam though. And if it does'nt work, it have only no effect at all....
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