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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Coreola
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2013-11-09 15:30:35 UTC
Maybe you could add a reload time skill to cut down on the 40sec?

Jump, jump, jump.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#442 - 2013-11-09 15:31:17 UTC
X'ret wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, so far I feel like I'm seeing 3 major areas of complaint, alongside a lot of people who think this will be a good change. Those areas are:

  • 40s reload is boring and will be miserable to use please don't do it
  • Switching ammo types (other damage types or to FOF(does anyone actually use fof?)) will be very difficult which is key for missile users
  • This is a nerf to RLML and I love them so please don't do it

    • I'm not convinced at all by the first complaint. As I've said before, this delay creates new kimds of decision making, it creates spikes of tension in fights rather than a flat amount of damage moving around and beyond those things it can be completely mitigated if you want. As others have pointed out, simply splitting your launchers into two groups and alternating them means you are never stuck in reload. It also means you lose the advantage of having your damage front-loaded into a very high DPS number. Still, if you can completely bypass this 'downside' I don't see how you can argue that this mechanic alone ruins the system.

    I commented earlier on the missile switching - I think it is a valid complaint and I'd like to find a work-around for it as an iteration but I don't think it's a show-stopper. Several of the ships using these systems are kinetic bonused which means you don't switch that often. You still have time to switch on the way to a fight based on what damage type might be best. You still have the option to switch as you run out of charges and would be reloading anyway. But again, this is a legit complaint and I want to look into it.

    Most of the complaints about it being a straight up nerf make me feel like going ahead with the old plan and leaving RLML in their current state would have been a mistake. I think most of you feeling this way are just disappointed with the idea of losing a slightly over-powered weapon system, which is understandable. Please keep in mind that this change represents a 15-20% damage drop over long fights but offers a new advantage in trade. I suspect that ships like FW Caracals with RLML will remain very strong. Also, if they don't, it's very easy to tune the reload time down slightly or the rate of fire up slightly to bring them into balance and we would absolutely watch that and make necessary adjustments. I would be extremely unhappy if the numbers were bad and rapid launchers disappeared from Caracals and Fleet Scythes completely.

    Broader complaints about missiles vs turrets or training time often have merit, but they represent much bigger projects that we fully intend to take on, just not during this rebalance. We hear you though and hopefully we can start working on major module balance projects in the coming releases as we are closing in on finishing our first lap of all the ships in the game.

    Hope this answers some of your concerns


    Alright do it Rise..! Its boring, i feel myself like someone who tryin help to understand what sunrise is to another who blind from his born.

    Have fun! Wont check this thread again, it just makes me mad, very mad.

    Cant wait to see another great EVE Trailer where the commentator tells 80% of the fleet left the field bcoz they reloading their weapon systems, advanced spaceship technology! Pirate

    Wait, its a prank right, right?? There must be a camera somewhere, fun to see people RAGE!?

    Unbelievable..



    Notice also that Rubicon page says there wil be cahnges to help small scale and solo combat. While what they are doign is exact opposite.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Chessur
    Full Broadside
    Deepwater Hooligans
    #443 - 2013-11-09 15:35:32 UTC
    Major Killz wrote:
    Personally, I was not apart of the NERF heavy missile crowd. Well, I was in favour reducing heavy missile range. I never understood why players couldn’t understand their issue was a combination of modules, ship stats, and hull bonuses. Together they were a VERY POWERFUL COMBINATION.

    Funny thing is the combination is still VERY POWERFUL. Why we’re not seeing masses of Drakes is some sort of mass false perception that heavy missile have been NERFED INTO THE GROUND. When in fact the pre-NERF heavy missiles and post-NERF heavy missiles are relatively the same. Well. Heavy missile range was reduced significantly.

    The old heavy missiles were NEVER as good as light missiles at applied damage. They were NEVER that great at destroying frigates without a stasis webifier applied. Again, light missiles were and are superior in that regard.

    So what has changed? Certain ship stats, hull bonuses and an increase in rapid light missile damage. So, while a rapid light missile launcher-Caracals absolute damage is less than a heavy missile Caracal. The difference isn’t significant while the applied damage is significant. Not to mention easier fitting option when using rapid light missile launchers.

    I'd like to see Drakes with a Rapid light missile bonus. That would be funny.

    Point is there was NEVER THAT significant of a difference in absolute damage between a launcher firing heavy missiles and rapid launcher firing light missiles (think it’s around 9 – 17% now and maybe 19 - 27% v0v). Heavy missile did benefit from a significant range difference but light missiles had superior applied damage.

    I’m sure if the Caracal had a resistance bonus players would cry more and be on the NERF rapid light missile launchers train but we were spared such EMO.

    I'm honestly more interested in a more indepth reason why CCP RISE believes rapid light missile launchers are overpowerd. If he does believe they are then just NERF absolute damage output. Why complicate things?


    RLM's never recieved a damage buff. None at all. They are still shooting the same DPS from years ago. It just seems 'ok' because HMLs and HAM's really are that ****. They are completely worthless. I used to fly an RLM CNI (before the CNI was nerfed, and HMLs were nerfed) No one seemed to complain about it then.

    What i find funny- is that Drakes, and HMLs were really never that great. When the drakes and HML's were nerfed, ABC's were already introduced- and the drake (along with all other BC's) were completely obsoleated at that point.

    Post HML nerf, there is no worthwhile cruiser hull that can use cruiser sized missiles, other than RLM. So of course you are going to see a lot of them.

    CCP needs to fix HML's and HAM's. That is the right way of dealing tiwth this probelm, not an outright nerf to RLMs
    Hatsumi Kobayashi
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #444 - 2013-11-09 15:38:05 UTC
    Chessur wrote:
    RLM's never recieved a damage buff. None at all. They are still shooting the same DPS from years ago.


    Didn't light missiles as a whole receive a slight damage buff recently?

    No sig.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #445 - 2013-11-09 15:38:53 UTC
    Lloyd Roses wrote:
    Chessur wrote:

    Nerf HMLs, and HAM's and make them unsuable: Check
    Create RHMLs, with out changing HMLs base stats, means that they will be sub par in every way to cruise: Check
    Come up with 40 second reload time for RHMLs + RLMLs: Under the guise of 'create interesting chioces' and to fix an 'OP' weapon system: Check

    Completely ignore the forums telling you that this is a horrible idea, and that this will destroy the only missile based crusier weapon: Check

    Completly destroy the Cerb, Scythe Fleet, Caracal, Osprey Navy: Check

    [...]*explanation [...].


    Cut the bottom half away :>

    I really disagree, especially in kiting situations (I believe you're talking about kiting) they now seem a good bit stronger. correct ammo can be loaded while moving around and honestly, how many times do you even use non-faction missiles? Personally got navy loaded 97% of the time, simply cause they are a good bit better against frigs and talwars, and also cause they aren't that much worse at shooting cruisers and above compared to navies, primarily also looking at my mate/mates I fly with normally carrying the big guns.

    Now compressing all your volleys into a much shorter timeframe, a little bit of planning ahead (a la I do not see any targets on dscan I'd use navies on, then reload accordingly - I'm pretty sure people like you got a pretty good overview of what they need and what is around) et voila: For the time you're firing at a target you now deal masively increased damage - and you can reload while kiting away anyways (especially as a user of linked nanoships, you certainly know what I'm adressing.

    The rapid heavies I got barely any opinion on, I personally like heavies but am rather unsatisfied with their explosion velocity and volleydamage. Think it's to quick to judge how good an idea those were right now, especially with their assault characteristics, I'd expect to see them a few times on active tanked duo-roam ravens.

    Afterall, pls tell me which ship goes fast enough to catch a cerberus, while also being able to tank those 700 dps for nearly one minute?


    Without links? There are ALOT OF SHIPS THAT CAN CATCH A CERBERUS AND MURDER IT. In fact, nearly all other HACS can. As well as some tech 1, Navy or Pirate Cruisers.

    With links against someone without links it's different OFC.

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    Onictus
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #446 - 2013-11-09 15:39:57 UTC
    Angelus Ryan wrote:
    Judging by Rise's responses in this thread ("choices", "not a deal breaker", etc) , I am getting the vibe that this idea will go through no matter what anyone says.

    This sort of behavior is getting tiresome on CCP's behalf.

    I always say my thanks to good features and give props to the game in general, but this idea is just idiotic and should be shelved immediately.

    If RLMLs are OP, then reduce their damage output. But the real problem is the absolutely ****** performance of HMLs (and to a lesser degree, HAMs) and not the fact that RLMLs are all that OP.


    +1 SPOT on.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #447 - 2013-11-09 15:44:05 UTC
    Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
    Chessur wrote:
    RLM's never recieved a damage buff. None at all. They are still shooting the same DPS from years ago.


    Didn't light missiles as a whole receive a slight damage buff recently?


    Yes. Hes being CUTE. I should pinch his cheeks!

    Technically rapid light missile launchers did not gain a damage bonus. The module it self does no damage, missiles do.

    Semantics.

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #448 - 2013-11-09 15:44:40 UTC
    Chessur wrote:


    If you are seriously trying to justify to me that shooting 18 volleys faster, than the nice large magazine that i have now is a good idea, no. No gang is going to chase me around (nor would i want to be on field) For 40 seconds.

    Many ships can catch a cerb. Navy cruisers (SFI, ScyFI, Nosprey come to mind), Cynabal, other HACs, T1 cruisrs, Rapier / Huggin. If you only load CN you are really limiting your options, and it shows your lack of understanding in missile mechanics, but more likely- the inexperience you have. 40 seconds of no DPS, is worse than being jammed, by a falcon again, and again, and again during an engagement.


    The rage coming from you is immense. They change your favorite weapon, deal with it. As an upside, they still leave you your OGB for the moment, so there is no need to rage that hard. With that kind of reaction towards RML, I guess you'll just unsub once they remove your *secret weapon*.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #449 - 2013-11-09 15:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
    Rise, this isnt going to create "moments of tension." The caracal/cerb will no longer be able to perform in their roles. Since they dont do what we need them to do, they will be replaced by other ships. We arent going to sit around and say "well this is what we used to fly, so we have to find a way to get it to work. It will be "well the cerb isnt good anti-tackle anymore, what ship will we use to replace it."

    What this will create is just different fleet comps where the cerbs and caracals are replaced by other ships that dont have a choice between 2 crippled weapon systems, and 1 short range brawling weapon system.

    Furthermore, if you go ahead and look at the killboards of people posting in this thread, the majority of people for this change dont fly in anything resembling a small gang.

    Source: I personally checked the last 3 months of every poster in the first 15 pages of this thread.


    In addition, as said before, this makes RLMs more hated by everyone in the fight. This is a bad design for a weapon system designed to do consistent DPS. With inconsistent DPS, people will just move on to other weapons that do what we need, which is killing tackle when it is on top of us, not sometimes killing tackle and sometimes doing nothing.
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #450 - 2013-11-09 15:51:18 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Alright, so far I feel like I'm seeing 3 major areas of complaint, alongside a lot of people who think this will be a good change. Those areas are:

  • 40s reload is boring and will be miserable to use please don't do it
  • Switching ammo types (other damage types or to FOF(does anyone actually use fof?)) will be very difficult which is key for missile users
  • This is a nerf to RLML and I love them so please don't do it

    • I'm not convinced at all by the first complaint. As I've said before, this delay creates new kimds of decision making, it creates spikes of tension in fights rather than a flat amount of damage moving around and beyond those things it can be completely mitigated if you want. As others have pointed out, simply splitting your launchers into two groups and alternating them means you are never stuck in reload. It also means you lose the advantage of having your damage front-loaded into a very high DPS number. Still, if you can completely bypass this 'downside' I don't see how you can argue that this mechanic alone ruins the system.

    I commented earlier on the missile switching - I think it is a valid complaint and I'd like to find a work-around for it as an iteration but I don't think it's a show-stopper. Several of the ships using these systems are kinetic bonused which means you don't switch that often. You still have time to switch on the way to a fight based on what damage type might be best. You still have the option to switch as you run out of charges and would be reloading anyway. But again, this is a legit complaint and I want to look into it.

    Most of the complaints about it being a straight up nerf make me feel like going ahead with the old plan and leaving RLML in their current state would have been a mistake. I think most of you feeling this way are just disappointed with the idea of losing a slightly over-powered weapon system, which is understandable. Please keep in mind that this change represents a 15-20% damage drop over long fights but offers a new advantage in trade. I suspect that ships like FW Caracals with RLML will remain very strong. Also, if they don't, it's very easy to tune the reload time down slightly or the rate of fire up slightly to bring them into balance and we would absolutely watch that and make necessary adjustments. I would be extremely unhappy if the numbers were bad and rapid launchers disappeared from Caracals and Fleet Scythes completely.

    Broader complaints about missiles vs turrets or training time often have merit, but they represent much bigger projects that we fully intend to take on, just not during this rebalance. We hear you though and hopefully we can start working on major module balance projects in the coming releases as we are closing in on finishing our first lap of all the ships in the game.

    Hope this answers some of your concerns


    On the splitting of the weapons issue..

    Nobody wants two groups of weapons. And people don't like the concept of having to press F2 along with F1.

    Its silly, but thats basically what people are thinking.

    "Wait.. i can't just fire Everything? I have to fire a first spread, then when its reloading, fire a 2nd?".

    While tactically it is sound, in a game, people want to do as much frontloaded damage as they can "aka Alpha there target". Requiring people to conduct any actual maneuvering, tactics, or display of any knowledge is beyond the capability of the typical eve player. The above average player should have little issues of adjusting to the changes.

    .. that accounts for 1% of the database. The other 99% will see it as a nerf because they can't fire Everything at once, and if they do, they may or maynot die.

    Thats a chance people won't take or try to coordinate.

    Good for alpha, bad for tactics, as people who believe they will get into combat (by some off chance they did not alpha the person) will not use these missile launchers.


    Yaay!!!!
    Gypsio III
    Questionable Ethics.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #451 - 2013-11-09 15:51:36 UTC
    Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
    Chessur wrote:
    RLM's never recieved a damage buff. None at all. They are still shooting the same DPS from years ago.


    Didn't light missiles as a whole receive a slight damage buff recently?


    Quite right, LMs were heavily buffed in Retribution. Typical Chessur spouting his mouth off again. Roll
    X'ret
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #452 - 2013-11-09 15:51:50 UTC
    Lloyd Roses wrote:
    The rage coming from you is immense. They change your favorite weapon, deal with it. As an upside, they still leave you your OGB for the moment, so there is no need to rage that hard. With that kind of reaction towards RML, I guess you'll just unsub once they remove your *secret weapon*.


    i suggest you to keep away from posting until you leave the primary school, or until you meet with the proper mental performance peoples has in that age.
    Deacon Abox
    Black Eagle5
    #453 - 2013-11-09 15:51:52 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Alright, so far I feel like I'm seeing 3 major areas of complaint, alongside a lot of people who think this will be a good change. Those areas are:

  • 40s reload is boring and will be miserable to use please don't do it
  • Switching ammo types (other damage types or to FOF(does anyone actually use fof?)) will be very difficult which is key for missile users
  • This is a nerf to RLML and I love them so please don't do it
    • . . .
    Hope this answers some of your concerns

    No. You totally skipped over those of us concerned that buffing these modules in any way will result in the extinction of frigates. Straight

    As, Major Killz said, why don't you just do some direct slight nerf to the modules or the ammo instead?

    CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

    Hatsumi Kobayashi
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #454 - 2013-11-09 15:53:49 UTC
    Major Killz wrote:
    Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
    Chessur wrote:
    RLM's never recieved a damage buff. None at all. They are still shooting the same DPS from years ago.


    Didn't light missiles as a whole receive a slight damage buff recently?


    Yes. Hes being CUTE. I should pinch his cheeks!

    Technically rapid light missile launchers did not gain a damage bonus. The module it self does no damage, missiles do.

    Semantics.


    The rest of his argument isn't wrong, though.

    No sig.
    Karle Tabot
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #455 - 2013-11-09 15:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Karle Tabot
    I am editing as I read and understand more.

    I have not fully digested this change, but I feel certain players will be unfairly hurt.

    A game needs change, but too many changes hurt a game imo.

    Changes seem to me to much more affect a newer player.

    An older player with far more SPs can see an impact on what he/she has focused on training recently, and weather it far easier, with so many other skills to fall back upon. Here, a newer player, who focused on training these skill is going to be heavily impacted imo.

    In a game with a learning curve like this, to make a change that seems to be pretty punitive to a player who has focused on certain missile training, especially when missiles for pvp already had many detractors, makes it seem like the people making these changes do not even consider newer players and the disproportionate impact such changes can have on them.
    Mole Guy
    Bob's Bait and Tackle
    #456 - 2013-11-09 15:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
    the idea of having their damage front loaded is pretty cool. this iteration isnt, but the idea is neat.

    ive been a proponent of RLML and love the new RHML. i think guns should be broken up like that as well. one long range, one short range, and one a ship size down just like these rapids.

    to this front loading thing. there needs to be a real benefit to using them. damage application isnt a function of the launcher, its a function of the missile (using light missiles for light ships, etc.).

    upside to using them is they hit better. light missiles chasing a frig puts a hurting on it. heavies and cruise do nothing.
    down side is range and actual dps. sure they are faster, but i dont see them (RLML/lights) traveling 150+km like cruise.

    they may have descent dps, but they are limited by range and hp (think defenders).
    if you wanna give them a longer reload time, im for it, but you need to raise the dps to equal what it is now.
    i think the idea of a gattling missile boat rawx...
    typical guy weapon...drop its load and done for a while (nap time)...

    but it needs to put the missiles out while its operating....and they need to hit hard. a caracal (specialized frig killer) with RLML (specialized smaller ship weapon) should be able to shred an AF. i dont know how well these will do their job. to me, if one goes through THAT much trouble to target a specific ship, it had better shred that ship.

    honestly, i think the RLML and RHML should be left alone. tweaked a tad maybe or tweak the missiles they spew.

    the real thing would be to introduce a new line of launchers similar to ASB. if you want the front loaded dps, one could opt for that weapon style and set his ship up around it. you could make 4 new ones. two for missiles and two for rockets/hams.

    i could just see a rapid ham launcher on a freakin phoon or something. would be a cruiser or hac nightmare. on this device, i could see a 40 second reload timer. i would use it even with such down time. it would mean the enemy had little time to rep, especially armored ships. with a long down time between rep cycles and the rep coming at the end, i dont see may armored ships surviving.
    a rapid rocket launcher on a sac or cyclone would mean ugly death for frigs. the sac could tank for hours and offload tons of dps (then wait 40 seconds). wash, rinse, repeat.

    sustained dps is ok, but with these..i can see your train of thought. walk in, select a target and shred em. then recover. it would REALLY help solo pvp. i know people say it wont...as long as you keep dps (over the course of the fight) the same. higher front side, longer reload. the enemy wont get a chance to rep because your launchers will shred em first.

    40 second shoot time, 40 second reload means 2x the dps while its active. to me it means you opponent will be in structure before they know what hit em. from there, they will be in pure survival mode. now, bring in ship 2,3 or in fleets roaming null sec and you will take everything down in mere seconds. as soon as they decloak, they give up their ghost.

    but we cant drop dps. adjust it or make new modules is my vote. i would use the new modules, i think the idea is rad...

    it would be good for incursions or pve too. one less enemy on the field dishing out dps while you reload. pick a target, shred em, reload...pick a target, shred em. plus the reload cycle would give guys a short break in between targets to setup for the next wave/attack.

    but we cant loose dps.

    to counter this (and not leave guns out), we could have a new rank 1 skill that would reduce the reload time of missiles and turrets.

    lets not leave out guns. to have a gun system like this would be freakin awesome. a zealot with small, range bonused pulse lasers as an anti frig platform? i love it. or an apoc with heavy pulse? with a good ROF and tracking bonus (as medium sized/sig radius weapon, not large) and the power consumption of a medium weapon would be flat bad ass.
    Bouh Revetoile
    In Wreck we thrust
    #457 - 2013-11-09 16:03:26 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Rise, this isnt going to create "moments of tension."

    The caracal/cerb will no longer be able to perform in their roles. Since they dont do what we need them to do, they will be replaced by other ships. We arent going to sit around and say "well this is what we used to fly, so we have to find a way to get it to work. It will be "well the cerb isnt good anti-tackle anymore, what ship will we use to replace it."

    Furthermore, if you go ahead and look at the killboards of people posting in this thread, the majority of people for this change dont fly in anything resembling a small gang.

    Source: I checked the last 3 months of every poster in the first 15 pages of this thread.

    In fact, in FW, these launchers will be even better than before, because they will remove frigates from the field twice as fast as before before they need to reload. Then, they'll simply warp off not too far while reloading, and come back to do the magic again. They will be *very* strong against frigate gang because they will be twice as deadly as before because of the front loaded dps and will need to be on field half the time they needed before.

    It's basicaly anti-frigate arties with no tracking... At least now they won't be better at shooting cruisers than other missiles.

    Also, for comparison, 1400mm arties have ~20s firing rate and nobody ever complained about it. And a you'll basicaly finish reloading in one warp.

    As Rise mentioned, the only real drawback is the inability to swap ammo on the fly. I think this is fair to other missiles systems.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #458 - 2013-11-09 16:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
    Like the issue here isnt RLMs are too good. Its that every other missile system is terrible for anything except brawling, so you force the ships to be always fit as death to frigates. If you actually had to give something up to fit RLMs (ie, if choosing to not fit HMLs was a real choice requiring thought) then you would see a lot more cerbs with hmls and doing **** damage to frigates.


    Tl;dr add a "swarm" mode to HMLs, toggled by ammo choice, with a long reload after using swarm missiles.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #459 - 2013-11-09 16:06:53 UTC
    Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
    Major Killz wrote:
    Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
    Chessur wrote:
    RLM's never recieved a damage buff. None at all. They are still shooting the same DPS from years ago.


    Didn't light missiles as a whole receive a slight damage buff recently?


    Yes. Hes being CUTE. I should pinch his cheeks!

    Technically rapid light missile launchers did not gain a damage bonus. The module it self does no damage, missiles do.

    Semantics.


    The rest of his argument isn't wrong, though.


    v0v

    A lot of his arguments mirror my own or at least those I make to those I’m close with in game.

    Most non-terrible pilots or those who have high level of understanding of game mechanics, dynamics and META often come to the same conclusions.

    So I was not disagreeing with him. In fact I was and tend to ignore his post because he never posts anything I don’t know already or agree with. I’m a lot more interested in other viewpoints and those who disagree with me.

    What I’d like to know is why some players believe light missiles in rapid missile launchers are overpowered. I’ve been reading more and more of that point of view and this is the first time CCP has come out and said anything with regard to the state of that module. Was very surprised.

    So, I’m waiting for the profound arguments for why the aforementioned module is overpowered.

    [u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
    Chessur
    Full Broadside
    Deepwater Hooligans
    #460 - 2013-11-09 16:14:00 UTC
    Gypsio III wrote:
    Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
    Chessur wrote:
    RLM's never recieved a damage buff. None at all. They are still shooting the same DPS from years ago.


    Didn't light missiles as a whole receive a slight damage buff recently?


    Quite right, LMs were heavily buffed in Retribution. Typical Chessur spouting his mouth off again. Roll


    I said, Rapid ligh tmissile launchers- not light missiles never recieved a buff. Read the damn post moron.