These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

RAW Materials Trade Bond – 35bil @ 5% [CLOSED WITH FINAL 'REPORT']
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#61 - 2013-11-09 01:56:30 UTC
LOL just got to laugh at this thread. All the MD Elite are here about to rake in billions and make it look easy while giving people a chance to make some easy isk and there are questions about the credibility of RAW23. Lol

I'm just disappointed I did get in on the bond ah well maybe next time.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#62 - 2013-11-09 01:58:02 UTC
Rykker Bow wrote:

I've a few business plans that can generate roughly 100b in profits per month but that does not mean I have the capital on hand to put them into action.


You have just to ask for that capital on hand Blink

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
#63 - 2013-11-09 02:03:17 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
... it is quite tricky becoming a lender who holds their own collateral as you have to be trusted not to run off with it.


Isn't that just evidence that the self-held collateralized lending business on MD isn't competitive? Anyone could solve that problem by offering higher collateral valuation (or requiring less collateral). The longstanding MD practice of valuing BPOs at NPC value in particular could be Exhibit A.

(Not that I'm biased and have a giant stack of researched BPOs I like using as collateral. No sir.)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#64 - 2013-11-09 02:16:11 UTC
Kethas Protagonist wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
... it is quite tricky becoming a lender who holds their own collateral as you have to be trusted not to run off with it.


Isn't that just evidence that the self-held collateralized lending business on MD isn't competitive? Anyone could solve that problem by offering higher collateral valuation (or requiring less collateral). The longstanding MD practice of valuing BPOs at NPC value in particular could be Exhibit A.

(Not that I'm biased and have a giant stack of researched BPOs I like using as collateral. No sir.)


As someone who had to liquidate collateral, I can tell you that liquidating some 100-200B worth of crap is not painless nor quick and in the end the collateral holder risks losing a TON of time but also to lose above the 5-10% or so padding that is usually requested.

This hold even more true when collateral is not BPOs but (very common case) speculative stock.

Imagine having to dump 30,000 identical cruisers or something like that. Not going to happen anytime soon.

Imagine having to liquidate 340 low researched speculation generated identical BPOs.

Because THAT's what happens. The era of 1-2B loans that would easily be liquidated by selling those 2 capital BPOs are over.
These days 20B is a minimum cut, these days people (pretend to) have learned that patches = easy money made with speculation so collateral preferences went from high quality low risk collateral to low quality, hard to sell / illiquid high risk collateral.

Therefore and after much sweating at liquidating hordes of crap, I have decided to not accept < 8% overcollateral loans nor to finance anyone so miserable to not offer 2,5 - 3% interest a month.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
flakeys
Doomheim
#65 - 2013-11-09 09:34:03 UTC
Block Ukx wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Edit - I'm also very sorry if these kind of potential earnings seem unreal to you. I know that they match up with the kind of figures your own business was posting as annual earnings using more than ten times the capital. But your inability to grasp what can be done with the markets in EvE is not my responsibility. If it's any consolation, I'm sure your earnings didn't require you to grind more than five hours a day, which is what these potential profit levels would conservatively need.


You forgot to say, that in all these years he never accepted to be audited once.

This lack of transparency, considering the hundreds of investor billions held for so many years, does not really entitle to go count the beans in somebody else's home.




In case you have not noticed BSAC is closed.

Perhaps, he should give me his key so I can audit him.






Come on , are you really that daft block?

'I used to smoke 3 packs a day for 50 years but since i quit smoking last year i am now speaking down to anyone who lights a cigarette' ... you sound like one of those people block.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
flakeys
Doomheim
#66 - 2013-11-09 09:37:34 UTC
Blink
Arcosian wrote:
LOL just got to laugh at this thread. All the MD Elite are here about to rake in billions and make it look easy while giving people a chance to make some easy isk and there are questions about the credibility of RAW23. Lol

I'm just disappointed I did get in on the bond ah well maybe next time.



There is allways room to doubt someones credibility , yes even that of RAW because end of the line anyone is a potential scammer .I would never dare say that Raw or for that part grendell is a 100 % safe investment even though i trust them enough to loan reasonable amounts.


The funny thing here is not THAT his credibility is being discussed but WHO is discussing it.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#67 - 2013-11-09 11:38:57 UTC
flakeys wrote:

There is allways room to doubt someones credibility , yes even that of RAW because end of the line anyone is a potential scammer .I would never dare say that Raw or for that part grendell is a 100 % safe investment even though i trust them enough to loan reasonable amounts.


This.

For several reasons RAW23 has become more than an investment to me. Because of this I couldn't even perform a "trust audit" because I am not neutral towards him any more and it'd be dishonest to show like I were.

This also exposes me to a larger risk: I wanted and want to invest on RAW23 and Rykker Bow more than ISK, I want to invest friendship and that one can't even be compared with stupid ISK (or RL cash for what regards my way of thinking).

If one of them scammed, for me it'd be a terrible blow. I could not care the less to lose 100B or 200B over them, per se but I'd be so devastated by the person betrayal that I am not sure I would keep playing.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
RAW23
#68 - 2013-11-09 12:17:06 UTC
flakeys wrote:
Blink
Arcosian wrote:
LOL just got to laugh at this thread. All the MD Elite are here about to rake in billions and make it look easy while giving people a chance to make some easy isk and there are questions about the credibility of RAW23. Lol

I'm just disappointed I did get in on the bond ah well maybe next time.



There is allways room to doubt someones credibility , yes even that of RAW because end of the line anyone is a potential scammer .I would never dare say that Raw or for that part grendell is a 100 % safe investment even though i trust them enough to loan reasonable amounts.


The funny thing here is not THAT his credibility is being discussed but WHO is discussing it.


Flakeys is quite right. There should be questions and I shouldn't get a free pass because of my background. One of the biggest dangers the investment market has suffered from in the past is a lack of oversight and an unwillingness to challenge the Old Guard. I don't even have a problem with Block doing the challenging or asking the questions, despite knowing that this comes from an old grudge rather than any real concern for the investment.

The issue I have with his posts in this thread is a) that they attempt to indirectly insinuate things without having the courage to actually say what he means, and b) that when we do get to the bottom of what he means, most of it just doesn't make any sense (by which I mean that it is devoid of logic). I should have become used to this by now as Block is pretty notorious for being unable to string two thoughts together coherently in a post but I'm afraid I let my anger get the best of me last night and responded to his posts in a way that gave them greater credence than they deserved.

In short, scrutiny is just as important on large bonds raised by experienced people as it is on small bonds raised by the inexperienced.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#69 - 2013-11-09 12:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rykker Bow
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

If one of them scammed, for me it'd be a terrible blow. I could not care the less to lose 100B or 200B over them, per se but I'd be so devastated by the person betrayal that I am not sure I would keep playing.


This is exactly how I feel. The loss of a good friend would be much more distressing than the loss of any digital property.

This game can create some dire enemies, but because of that, it can also create some incredible friendships. For me, RAW23 and Vaerah Vahrokha are at the top of the list. Over years of knowing them, they've both acted with honor and truth in my eyes and will always have my support.

But enough of all the sappy commentary: RAW, go kick some ass in the markets!!

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Block Ukx
420 Enterprises.
#70 - 2013-11-09 13:27:41 UTC
RAW23 wrote:

Flakeys is quite right. There should be questions and I shouldn't get a free pass because of my background. One of the biggest dangers the investment market has suffered from in the past is a lack of oversight and an unwillingness to challenge the Old Guard. I don't even have a problem with Block doing the challenging or asking the questions, despite knowing that this comes from an old grudge rather than any real concern for the investment.

The issue I have with his posts in this thread is a) that they attempt to indirectly insinuate things without having the courage to actually say what he means, and b) that when we do get to the bottom of what he means, most of it just doesn't make any sense (by which I mean that it is devoid of logic). I should have become used to this by now as Block is pretty notorious for being unable to string two thoughts together coherently in a post but I'm afraid I let my anger get the best of me last night and responded to his posts in a way that gave them greater credence than they deserved.

In short, scrutiny is just as important on large bonds raised by experienced people as it is on small bonds raised by the inexperienced.




You don't seem to take my comment very well. Like I explained before, my comment was based on YOUR claim. No need to be so extreme.



How about you give the API of all your characters and I'll audit your bond?
RAW23
#71 - 2013-11-09 13:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
Block Ukx wrote:
RAW23 wrote:

Flakeys is quite right. There should be questions and I shouldn't get a free pass because of my background. One of the biggest dangers the investment market has suffered from in the past is a lack of oversight and an unwillingness to challenge the Old Guard. I don't even have a problem with Block doing the challenging or asking the questions, despite knowing that this comes from an old grudge rather than any real concern for the investment.

The issue I have with his posts in this thread is a) that they attempt to indirectly insinuate things without having the courage to actually say what he means, and b) that when we do get to the bottom of what he means, most of it just doesn't make any sense (by which I mean that it is devoid of logic). I should have become used to this by now as Block is pretty notorious for being unable to string two thoughts together coherently in a post but I'm afraid I let my anger get the best of me last night and responded to his posts in a way that gave them greater credence than they deserved.

In short, scrutiny is just as important on large bonds raised by experienced people as it is on small bonds raised by the inexperienced.




You don't seem to take my comment very well. Like I explained before, my comment was based on YOUR claim. No need to be so extreme.



How about you give the API of all your characters and I'll audit your bond?





I didn't like your comments because they didn't make sense. You have serious problems with logic and language that make it extremely frustrating to communicate with you. Unfortunately, my frustration at dealing with irrational statements got the better of me last night and I made the mistake of trying to point out the errors in your thinking to you. I won't waste my time doing that again because you don't seem willing to learn.

As to the audit, please stop trolling Block. Why would I give my api to someone with a history of deceitful behaviour and an obvious grudge against me? Oh, and someone who has spent his career trying to avoid audits by claiming that audits are of no use?

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Block Ukx
420 Enterprises.
#72 - 2013-11-09 13:54:48 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
I didn't like your comments because they didn't make sense. You have serious problems with logic and language that make it extremely frustrating to communicate with you. Unfortunately, my frustration at dealing with irrational statements got the better of me last night and I made the mistake of trying to point out the errors in your thinking to you. I won't waste my time doing that again because you don't seem willing to learn.

As to the audit, please stop trolling Block. Why would I give my api to someone with a history of deceitful behaviour and an obvious grudge against me? Oh, and someone who has spent his career trying to avoid audits by claiming that audits are of no use?




I'm not trolling about the audit. How about you give me your API key to audit you?


It's a very simple question; yes or no will do.
RAW23
#73 - 2013-11-09 14:00:40 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
Block Ukx wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
I didn't like your comments because they didn't make sense. You have serious problems with logic and language that make it extremely frustrating to communicate with you. Unfortunately, my frustration at dealing with irrational statements got the better of me last night and I made the mistake of trying to point out the errors in your thinking to you. I won't waste my time doing that again because you don't seem willing to learn.

As to the audit, please stop trolling Block. Why would I give my api to someone with a history of deceitful behaviour and an obvious grudge against me? Oh, and someone who has spent his career trying to avoid audits by claiming that audits are of no use?




I'm not trolling about the audit. How about you give me your API key to audit you?


It's a very simple question; yes or no will do.



Of course I won't. You have a documented history of public deception, you have deliberately misrepresented me in this thread, and you are not a very rationally competent individual. I have no idea why you would even begin to think that I would allow you to carry out an audit. It's a ridiculous request and can only be classified as trolling.

And I'll just leave this here:

Block Ukx wrote:

An audit cannot tell how many accounts someone has. Therefore, it cannot tell if someone has an account with a shady history. Auditors are at the mercy of the person providing the API key. This FACT should be enough for anyone to realize how useless audits are in determining scam risk.


Your own views on audits are part of the historical record. Your request to audit me just further shows your ongoing bad faith in this discussion.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Block Ukx
420 Enterprises.
#74 - 2013-11-09 14:16:30 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Block Ukx wrote:


I'm not trolling about the audit. How about you give me your API key to audit you?


It's a very simple question; yes or no will do.


Of course I won't. You have a documented history of public deception, you have deliberately misrepresented me in this thread, and you are not a very rationally competent individual. I have no idea why you would even begin to think that I would allow you to carry out an audit. It's a ridiculous request and can only be classified as trolling.



So I ask a question and now I'm trolling. I knew you would come up with some excuses not to give me your API key. I suppose it's ok to audit anyone but you.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#75 - 2013-11-09 14:23:45 UTC
This thread just went from painful has-been circlejerkery to poo-flinging awesomesauce.

Subscribed.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
RAW23
#76 - 2013-11-09 14:26:04 UTC
Block Ukx wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Block Ukx wrote:


I'm not trolling about the audit. How about you give me your API key to audit you?


It's a very simple question; yes or no will do.


Of course I won't. You have a documented history of public deception, you have deliberately misrepresented me in this thread, and you are not a very rationally competent individual. I have no idea why you would even begin to think that I would allow you to carry out an audit. It's a ridiculous request and can only be classified as trolling.



So I ask a question and now I'm trolling. I knew you would come up with some excuses not to give me your API key. I suppose it's ok to audit anyone but you.




Strawman Block. The fact that I won't let you audit me doesn't mean I won't allow an audit. But you know that. You commented on the last audit I had done.

If you want to pay for me to be audited and can find someone trustworthy with a solid history of carrying out audits I am more than happy to go ahead with one. Again. Like my previous two audits.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Block Ukx
420 Enterprises.
#77 - 2013-11-09 14:51:48 UTC
I have done audits before and I can do the audit myself. And, I won't charge you a penny.


Contrary to what you keep posting about me, I have been respectful to you. You on the other hand keep calling me names in an attempt to silence me; a very typical bully behavior.


I'll see you on your next bond,
Block Ukx

http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com
RAW23
#78 - 2013-11-09 15:01:14 UTC
Block Ukx wrote:
I have done audits before and I can do the audit myself. And, I won't charge you a penny.


Contrary to what you keep posting about me, I have been respectful to you. You on the other hand keep calling me names in an attempt to silence me; a very typical bully behavior.


I'll see you on your next bond,
Block Ukx



Block -you have a history of lying and your deceptiveness has been clear in this thread. You are not competent to carry out an audit, in large part because you are not publicly trusted. You have made it plain that you don't really want me to be audited or you would have accepted my offer. As I said, you are welcome to pay for me to be audited if you are interested - that won't cost me a penny either.

As to being respectful to me, that again is a lie. You have repeatedly implied that I am a liar, you have deliberately attempted to misrepresent my words, and, generally, you have made a bit of a fool of yourself. Your withdrawal from the thread when I respond positively to your request that I get an audit kind of puts the seal on this.

Quote:

I'll see you on your next bond,


I know. Because I hurt your feelings two years ago by asking you to get an audit (something you agreed to do and then reneged on) you will haunt me for ever. Something something revenge something something fear my wrath etc etc. It is rather pitiful.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#79 - 2013-11-09 15:03:30 UTC
RAW23 wrote:

If you want to pay for me to be audited and can find someone trustworthy with a solid history of carrying out audits I am more than happy to go ahead with one. Again. Like my previous two audits.


If you want I can performance audit you (for free). As I said above I can't believably deliver a "full" audit because I am emotionally involved but performance data parses are quite objective and could still hold some value.

This assuming you took a "relaxed" stance towards trading, ATM I can't spend 2-3 hours a day just gathering your data like I used to do once, I can max run the software once a day, better every 2-3 days.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Nanatoa
#80 - 2013-11-09 15:04:32 UTC
Hasn't Block refused audits on his business in the past? What is he on about here?

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011