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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#281 - 2013-11-08 21:12:52 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:

Edit 2: Here is a screenshot of my stiletto tanking about 20 drakes off my passive shield regen. http://i.imgur.com/m8Aw9.jpg
They were probably all shooting fury at me, which means 8000 eft missile dps translated to maybe 20 real dps.


20 drakes without even 1 TP they deserved it...

eve uni blob?


They had multiple tps. Most of the missiles didnt even hit. This was a provi sov fleet engaged in the defense of g-5. Full BR is at http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?113-Providence&p=553615&viewfull=1#post553615


Edit: This was also pre HML nerf
Omega Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2013-11-08 21:18:20 UTC
don't nerf pl0x!!! RLML not OP, our weapon of mass destruction against evil blobs of enemy tacklers!
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#283 - 2013-11-08 21:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
I laughed when a bro linked this thread to me at work. I suppose those who want rapid light missile launchers NERFED have won v0v but not really. The change is not THAT bad.

This MAY (not really) hurt solo pilots but in fleets not so much. This may also be a general Caldari NERF. There was no need for these changes but v0v

Still. I think a 20 - 30 second reload with comparative reduction in rate of fire is a "FAIR" trade. Not a fan of the 40 second reload time.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#284 - 2013-11-08 21:19:05 UTC
I think this is conceptually interesting, since it adds a new dimension to weapon characteristics (high dps, low endurance) that makes them good for hit and run tactics but poor for sustained engagements, and I'd like to see it implemented somewhere.

I'm not sure what I think of it here, since I don't think it actually resolves the issues with RLMLs, which that RLML cruisers can achieve superb damage application vs frigates, acceptable damage application vs other cruisers, and still retain a massive tank and long range for their weight class.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#285 - 2013-11-08 21:23:40 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:

Edit 2: Here is a screenshot of my stiletto tanking about 20 drakes off my passive shield regen. http://i.imgur.com/m8Aw9.jpg
They were probably all shooting fury at me, which means 8000 eft missile dps translated to maybe 20 real dps.


20 drakes without even 1 TP they deserved it...

eve uni blob?


They had multiple tps. Most of the missiles didnt even hit. This was a provi sov fleet engaged in the defense of g-5. Full BR is at http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?113-Providence&p=553615&viewfull=1#post553615


Edit: This was also pre HML nerf


i dont see tp applied to you though...
Omega Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2013-11-08 21:30:05 UTC
Actually, I came out with a good idea. Why don't you let us choose between 2 types of light missile ammo. The normal light missiles, and the Rapid fire Light missiles. For example, in the first 40 seconds of the fight when you need to burn away and get rid of tacklers or an enemy fleet is warping and you are finishing a tanky ship, everybody could switch to these new missiles for extra-dps in a short period of time, just like when you can choose to overheat or not.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#287 - 2013-11-08 21:30:07 UTC
this thread is missing some tinfoil hattery...
where is dinsdale and his claims taht this will ruin high sec mission runners and is only a boost to the large donuts.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
jackncoke
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2013-11-08 21:36:07 UTC
Basicly - you cant fit that on a BS and fleet up.

BS is used in large fleet engagements. And those tend to take a while. Having a fleet of missile users simply run out of ammo for 49 seconds means one dead fleet.

So you simply wont take missile users because they are once again useless.


So you have a cruiser.

That is capable of DPS-ing for 50 seconds and then you wish you took regular heavy missiles. Because if your targets are not dead in 50 seconds - you sure will be.

It seems like missile users can be usefull in PVP once again. But not really. They can be nice for gate camps where you gant small number of targets, but that about it. For any kind of escalation, roam or extended engagement you will take turret users. Because they are so much more usefull on the field.

And if a missile users raises his hand - show him T2 turret prerequisits and tell him to get cracking !
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2013-11-08 21:49:41 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
So why don't you just ungroup your weapons and shoot half of them while the other half reloads, you will still have the same sustained dps as you had before the change. Now you have to option to burst someone before his friends arrive, or break his active tank. I mean it still has the same stats over a long period of time, just use your imagination a little and this could add some very nice options. Now at least you are able to kill those ****** active tanked hawks.

Also adding some flavor to weapons is what is need, not just playing around with their damage and damage projection. A new mechanic always adds good play, like for instance the ASB.


NO You will NOT!! The ammount of damage you can do over long time was REDUCED!!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#290 - 2013-11-08 21:49:49 UTC
jackncoke wrote:
And if a missile users raises his hand - show him T2 turret prerequisits and tell him to get cracking !

Except that these prerequisites are dropping pretty massively in Rubicon. So, turrets for everyone! Rapid missile launchers for niche uses only!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#291 - 2013-11-08 21:51:05 UTC
AskariRising wrote:
409 dps wont be able to kill a dual MASB hawk... or will it?



probably not... unles syou web and paint it.

ships usign thte new rapid lights are useles agaisnt anythign but t1 frigates and destoryers

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#292 - 2013-11-08 21:51:42 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Both ships would have around 50 seconds of up time followed by 40 seconds of reload meaning that over extended engagements their true dps would be a bit more than half of the dps number above.


Less up time, less reload time would be better. Cut both by 50-75%. Then you'd have small clips that you could burn through in less than 20 seconds and you'd avoid the no fun zone that is long reload times since it'd be about 10-15 seconds.

Advantages
- Reload time is still long enough to be a disadvantage but not so long it's unbearable.
- You could even take the opportunity to switch damage types which adds more room for good players to maximize their damage.
- Overall DPS would be about the same and the frontloaded DPS wouldn't be so extreme.

Win/Win/WIn.


For this to be appropriately balanced, the "high dps window" needs to be long enough to bring down a typical target. Then the reload window needs to be long enough to make it un-ideal when sustained dps is important. I think your 20s attack, 10-15s reload is too short on both accounts, and the 50s attack, 40s relaod is just about ideal.


And I think 40s is way too long to twiddle my thumbs DURING a fight. But what makes you say that the typical target has to die in one window and what's a typical target anyway?
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#293 - 2013-11-08 21:54:45 UTC
Both interesting and bizarre, you've turned this into the 50 second combat mode for ships that fit the module.

You kill the person in 50 seconds, or you die.

I get the concept, I'm not sure it is a good one though.

You are basically increasing damage from these missile types by about 50%. I should say you are increasing the potential damage by that amount. Its......

Odd move. Might give a niche job to a set of missile launchers that kind of got a little lost with the rest of the missiles ingame.

Yaay!!!!
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#294 - 2013-11-08 21:55:37 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
this thread is missing some tinfoil hattery...
where is dinsdale and his claims taht this will ruin high sec mission runners and is only a boost to the large donuts.

You already had the tinfoil with your mouthbreathing thought that the only reason anyone from PL would dislike this is because of RHML ravens (lol like heavies can hit for ****)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#295 - 2013-11-08 21:57:30 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



FORGET THE DPS!! How much TOTAL damage can you do before reload? It will be less than EHP of a cruiser!! That is the issue.


Even if you have 20 THOSUAND dps, but you fire for 1 second and reload for 20k seconds.. you will NEVER kill a well fit enemy cruiser.. in fact this last example is the worse situation you could have basically


Will a cruiser die to the 23k dmg done by the rlml's of atm in 90 seconds ? If it won't , you have no point, have you got no brain dude? You can continuously do dps in the new model as easily as you can in the current model. When your first group of launchers are empty and start reloading you are using another group of launchers, and when group 2 is empty group 1 has already reloaded!. This means you are doing dps all the time, there is no stop in damage application. You can always shoot.



Funny point imo:

No cruiser that flies solo will have a flat 20k ehp. They are either AAR+800 plate, AAR+MAR, LSE-tanked, single XL-ASB(moa) or buffergank without real damage or HP. Aside from the scenario against a pure buffer fit, peaking at a higher dps-output is always better - being able to apply the same amount of damage in half the time is all but a drawback, even if you got to reload for 40secs (which is nothing compared to the advantages given)

Or else, the average T1 cruiser with exile (guessing that if solo, you'd either do a nanofit or something ancillary armor) tanks less than 300/500 dps/sec, so unlike before you can now even overcome his active tanking and let him bleed structure already while his reps are still 100% up, so he'll bleed structure once and maybe survive - but certainly die during his second reload. Atm any active armorcruiser can tank a single caracal NP.
Cannot see how this is anything but a huge buff to rapids.



Just wow at this fail level. The ASB is basicallya buffer module (sicne it cannto be run forever) you must take its total HP buff on a full cahrge load and caount that as a large extender . It works exaclty as taht as long as the incommign dps is not much larger than the repair rate. ANd It wil NOT BE in a SOLO fight. Remember you wilL NOT be sishign full dps and the guy wil overheat his ASB.


A simple assault frigate can have 20 HP,,

any SHIELD rupture has more than 20 EHP. An armor fit will ahve even more, a maller can possibly hold 2 of these caracals loads!!!

Even my normal sttaber fit has more than that EHP!


You must be blind to not see how this is horrible for solo fights (And rapid laucnhers were the best weapons for cruiser solo activity)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#296 - 2013-11-08 21:59:27 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Both interesting and bizarre, you've turned this into the 50 second combat mode for ships that fit the module.

You kill the person in 50 seconds, or you die.

I get the concept, I'm not sure it is a good one though.

You are basically increasing damage from these missile types by about 50%. I should say you are increasing the potential damage by that amount. Its......

Odd move. Might give a niche job to a set of missile launchers that kind of got a little lost with the rest of the missiles ingame.



Considering that the other guy will be overheatign an ASB for those 50 seconds and at end he wil have a burned shield module..... whiel you wil have a ooops moment where you are defenseles against him.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Saturn Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#297 - 2013-11-08 22:01:53 UTC
Clean up the missile system first, THEN clean up the items.

I can't even tell which skills affect which launcher types because of the templating you guys use in your skill descriptions...

Do skills that affect Missile Launchers affect Rocket, Torpedo, or Cruise Launchers?
Do skills that affect Rocket Launchers affect Missiles?

****.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#298 - 2013-11-08 22:03:45 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
AskariRising wrote:
409 dps wont be able to kill a dual MASB hawk... or will it?



probably not... unles syou web and paint it.

ships usign thte new rapid lights are useles agaisnt anythign but t1 frigates and destoryers


Correction.

All frigates and destroyers but also those Single AAR Omen Navy set-ups (can destroy one without reload in a Cerberus now), some shield T1 cruisers and shield attack battle-cruisers.

Those who use gang links can ofc wait for the 40 sec reload on grid if they choose, but yeah. This change will make them more of a hit and run solo instead of sustained damage platform and in fleets this change will help end things quickly. I dunno, personally i feel fleets of these will be a plague. They kinda are already anyway but worse.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#299 - 2013-11-08 22:05:15 UTC
For the ones that did not try the math:

Rise quote:

"
This translates to a Caracal with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Light Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 409 dps

Both ships would have around 50 seconds of up time followed by 40 seconds of reload meaning that over extended ngagements their true dps would be a bit more than half of the dps number above. "

That means an effective DPS against anything other than a fight agaisnt a SINGLE frigate enemy will be 205 dps


CUrrent Rapid missiles in TQ give the same caracal 306 DPS


So its a 33% NERF to dps on a real fight!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2013-11-08 22:06:08 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
AskariRising wrote:
409 dps wont be able to kill a dual MASB hawk... or will it?



probably not... unles syou web and paint it.

ships usign thte new rapid lights are useles agaisnt anythign but t1 frigates and destoryers


Correction.

All frigates and destroyers but also those Single AAR Omen Navy set-ups (can destroy one without reload in a Cerberus now), some shield T1 cruisers and shield attack battle-cruisers.

Those who use gang links can ofc wait for the 40 sec reload on grid if they choose, but yeah. This change will make them more of a hit and run solo instead of sustained damage platform and in fleets this change will help end things quickly. I dunno, personally i feel fleets of these will be a plague. They kinda are already anyway but worse.



Yes they willbe helish in fleets of 5 or more. But made the best solo weapon system for cruisers.. a JOKE on solo work

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"