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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#181 - 2013-11-08 17:39:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Malcanis wrote:
This. There's a reason artillery is so popular despite having lower DPS than the other LR turrets.

(cough) … ganking … (cough) Some of us do see the potential, even with the changes as proposed.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#182 - 2013-11-08 17:40:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Summary: Burst DPS increases by 53.8%, prolonged DPS decreases by about 9.9%.

Overall this is good discussion. Obviously there's a pretty wide range of reactions and I think that's probably a good sign. Please keep raising concerns if you have them so we spot as many potential problems as possible.


I don't understand how 80-90% of people telling you this is a bad idea comes across as "a wide range of reactions". Very few people here like this idea.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#183 - 2013-11-08 17:40:21 UTC
Justin Einstein wrote:
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.


Why? Sustained DPS will be the same.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Gorski Car
#184 - 2013-11-08 17:40:28 UTC
rapid lights only do 1k ish alpha

Collect this post
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#185 - 2013-11-08 17:41:08 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Summary: Burst DPS increases by 53.8%, prolonged DPS decreases by about 9.9%.

Overall this is good discussion. Obviously there's a pretty wide range of reactions and I think that's probably a good sign. Please keep raising concerns if you have them so we spot as many potential problems as possible.


I don't understand how 80-90% of people telling you this is a bad idea comes across as "a wide range of reactions". Very few people here like this idea.


Very few of those people seem to understand that 2+0 has the same sum as 1+1

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#186 - 2013-11-08 17:41:16 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
If anything should have a "burst" mechanic with a long reload time, it should be remote reps.



=D



=D



=D



=D


Cap stable logi have no real resource for depletion. RR should have ammo and long reload timers. This adds additional decisionmaking to fleet fights, where a side that can properly stagger reps gets a big advantage over an unorganized fleet that just spams all their reps at once.
Sentinel Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2013-11-08 17:41:22 UTC
I'm not a huge fan of the idea, but I understand the theory behind it.
However I would propose that rather than making the change to Rapid Light, as well as the new soon-to-be Rapid Heavy, you JUST do it to the Rapid Heavy.

Call it a trial period.. see how it works, and how gameplay will adapt out of it, while leaving the existing Rapid Lights in their current roll.

Now my objections are, the comparison to ASB's.. ASB's can do what they do because they are so overpowered. They are.. Add to that the fact that most ships fit an ASB about their class (my Moa has an XL ASB.. that's two above it's hull class, likewise my Cyclone..) just increases the issue. It NEEDS the long reeload to make up for how silly OP it is when it is running.
These changes don't have that. I don't see in the stats you making Rapid Lights/Heavies silly OP during their active time, to justify the fact that in the reload time they will easily rep back to full health while continuing to apply DPS to you.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#188 - 2013-11-08 17:42:34 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
This. There's a reason artillery is so popular despite having lower DPS than the other LR turrets.

(cough) … ganking … (cough) Some of us do see the potential, even with the changes as proposed.


Eh, I'm not sure that the RMLs will be useful for ganking even after this change. It will take longer than 30s (which is the maximum CONCORD response time IIRC) to empty them, and even then, they'll still do less damage than the HAMsTorps you could fit instead.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2013-11-08 17:43:59 UTC
So a brief bit of intense excitement while you pour out the damage followed by a long period of boredom while you wait for the reload. It's a microcosm of PvP in EVE. How poetic.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#190 - 2013-11-08 17:44:51 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps. the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload.

I think you missed the point in my response. You'll only need a few volleys (at most) to kill most ship types in an L2, which means with a 35% improvement to rate of fire you can more quickly dispense any ships aggro'ing you. With maximum skills, a minimum of 3 ballistic controllers and +3/+5 damage/rate-of-fire implants I think you'll be looking at under 2 seconds per volley with Caldari Navy faction RLMLs (since it's about 3-seconds for me now). Faction launchers hold a bit more ammunition (my guestimate would be about 25 rounds). That translates into roughly 50 seconds of rapid firing before reload.

Justin Einstein wrote:
Exactly. Even if it only takes a couple of volleys to kill each ship, there are a lot of ships in missions, and 18 capacity is a lot less than 30 or whatever it is now and 10 sec is a lot less than 40 sec.

Capacity is ninety (90) with Caldari Navy RLMLs. Points to ponder:
• If the 40-second reload is fine, perhaps the 75% reduction in ammunition supply is to steep (perhaps 50%)
• If the new ammunition level is fine, perhaps the rate of fire increase should be 50% (instead of 35%)



Do note that someone doing L2's will not have anything close to maximum skills Also you're talking about a 75% magazine reduction on rapid lights.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#191 - 2013-11-08 17:45:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I hate this idea intensely. Being a newish player (between 3 and 4 months) I was planning on using RHMLs as a transition weapon as I train for other battleship sized weapons for PVE. This pretty much ruins that idea. Now these weapons will only be a decent option for fleet pvp. That's a really bad move in my eyes.


It's a completely neutral change with respect to PvE. In fact if you're smart about how you do your volleying and co-ordinate with drones, etc, using time spent warping between rooms to reload and so forth, you should be able to parley this change into a useful advantage.


Err...looks like to me sustained DPS is going down considerably so no it is not a neutral change. If I'm wrong please show me the math.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#192 - 2013-11-08 17:46:14 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
so there are two ideas i am really digging here

1. rapid cruise missile launchers. (lets make the pheonix usefull blappy pheonixTwisted)

2. all RR will work like ASB or AAR

what i would do is still make both use cap to activate but without charges (cap booster for shield nanite for Armor)

they run at 75% effectivness but with charge in they get a 225% boost (make it so there is max 5 cycles before reload and make reload one min)

if you did this RR would finally be balanced with internal reps.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#193 - 2013-11-08 17:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Malcanis wrote:
Eh, I'm not sure that the RMLs will be useful for ganking even after this change. It will take longer than 30s (which is the maximum CONCORD response time IIRC) to empty them, and even then, they'll still do less damage than the HAMsTorps you could fit instead.

I meant artillery is popular for ganking, due to the high alpha. Missiles, not so much… If they gave torpedoes an insane damage bump for reduced rate of fire, that could be interesting… I do like the idea of the proposed RLMLs in Faction Warfare, though.

MeBiatch wrote:
1. rapid cruise missile launchers. (lets make the pheonix useful)

Yeah, isn't that an interesting concept… Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#194 - 2013-11-08 17:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Motoko Innocentius
Kagura Nikon wrote:



FORGET THE DPS!! How much TOTAL damage can you do before reload? It will be less than EHP of a cruiser!! That is the issue.


Even if you have 20 THOSUAND dps, but you fire for 1 second and reload for 20k seconds.. you will NEVER kill a well fit enemy cruiser.. in fact this last example is the worse situation you could have basically


Will a cruiser die to the 23k dmg done by the rlml's of atm in 90 seconds ? If it won't , you have no point, have you got no brain dude? You can continuously do dps in the new model as easily as you can in the current model. When your first group of launchers are empty and start reloading you are using another group of launchers, and when group 2 is empty group 1 has already reloaded!. This means you are doing dps all the time, there is no stop in damage application. You can always shoot.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#195 - 2013-11-08 17:49:31 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
Do note that someone doing L2's will not have anything close to maximum skills Also you're talking about a 75% magazine reduction on rapid lights.

I'm only running IV's for most of my missile skills, and even III's with some +2/+3 implants wouldn't see that big a difference. Yes, it would appear to be a 75% capacity nerf.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#196 - 2013-11-08 17:51:21 UTC
By the way if RHMLs are still not receiving range or explosion bonuses I don't see barely anyone using them on battleships ever at this point.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#197 - 2013-11-08 17:54:29 UTC
*time warp to two weeks from now with this change to rlml's in*

A small gang fight somewhere in the Great Wildlands.

We're on Calamitous-Intent comms, while [7-2]'s nano knights are doing glorious battle with several times as many brawling cruisers accompanied by lots of hero tackle.

Corpie 1: "Couple new tacklers on dscan"
Corpie 1: "On grid now"
Corpie 2: "Crow X is coming in on for my Vagabond, can't track him"
Corpie 2: "F*** I'm scrammed by X"
Corpie 2: "You awake Kaeda? Kill this bloody Crow already, stop sucking"
Kaeda:

Answer A: "Sorry I'm still reloading for 25 seconds from killing the previous tacklers"
Answer B: "Sorry my Heavies aren't doing any damage to him"
Answer C: "Sorry can't hit him with my HAMS/Sorry my HAMS aren't doing any damage to him"

Corpie 2 (shortly after the death of his Vagabond): "Bring a bloody useful ship next time Kaeda f***ing missiles lol you bad"

And that night my missile cruisers went back to being hangar ornaments again and did not pass start or live happily ever after.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#198 - 2013-11-08 17:54:53 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
By the way if RHMLs are still not receiving range or explosion bonuses I don't see barely anyone using them on battleships ever at this point.


indeed if you are going for this whole long reload thing then make them really hurt...

kinda want my phoon to be epic.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#199 - 2013-11-08 17:55:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Lots of people not getting the potential of front-loaded dps against smaller targets in this thread I think.


This. There's a reason artillery is so popular despite having lower DPS than the other LR turrets.


While I agree with this in concept, in application a high alpha-strike to dps ratio doesn't work unless you have enough alpha damage to actually remove the target either in one shot, or perhaps 2 in the case of insufficient reps.

In this case, your not talking about alpha-strike, but just extraordinarily high dps over a short period of time. All the time you are firing he may be repping. Then your dps stops for 40 seconds, during which time he will still be repping. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a pvp local tank that isn't completely repped up in 40 seconds, especially in the day of ancillary armor/shield reppers.

If you can't break his tank in the first cycle, you probably never will. But just as 40 seconds is a long time in pvp, so is 50 seconds. I'm willing to try a RLML Sacrilege. Could be interesting.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#200 - 2013-11-08 17:55:51 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



FORGET THE DPS!! How much TOTAL damage can you do before reload? It will be less than EHP of a cruiser!! That is the issue.


Even if you have 20 THOSUAND dps, but you fire for 1 second and reload for 20k seconds.. you will NEVER kill a well fit enemy cruiser.. in fact this last example is the worse situation you could have basically


Will a cruiser die to the 23k dmg done by the rlml's of atm in 90 seconds ? If it won't , you have no point, have you got no brain dude? You can continuously do dps in the new model as easily as you can in the current model. When your first group of launchers are empty and start reloading you are using another group of launchers, and when group 2 is empty group 1 has already reloaded!. This means you are doing dps all the time, there is no stop in damage application. You can always shoot.



Funny point imo:

No cruiser that flies solo will have a flat 20k ehp. They are either AAR+800 plate, AAR+MAR, LSE-tanked, single XL-ASB(moa) or buffergank without real damage or HP. Aside from the scenario against a pure buffer fit, peaking at a higher dps-output is always better - being able to apply the same amount of damage in half the time is all but a drawback, even if you got to reload for 40secs (which is nothing compared to the advantages given)

Or else, the average T1 cruiser with exile (guessing that if solo, you'd either do a nanofit or something ancillary armor) tanks less than 300/500 dps/sec, so unlike before you can now even overcome his active tanking and let him bleed structure already while his reps are still 100% up, so he'll bleed structure once and maybe survive - but certainly die during his second reload. Atm any active armorcruiser can tank a single caracal NP.
Cannot see how this is anything but a huge buff to rapids.