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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
Yosarian
Koshaku
#161 - 2013-11-08 17:10:52 UTC
Fun idea. Given the apparent popularity of HAMs at the moment they make a nice alternative.

Would be nice if Typhoon ship bonuses worked for the BS-sized module ;)
Justin Einstein
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2013-11-08 17:11:13 UTC
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#163 - 2013-11-08 17:11:21 UTC
It looks like someone has been playing World of Tanks too much. I was wondering when 'auto loaders' would make an appearance.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2013-11-08 17:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



You shoud l use your brian and calcualte how much damage you can dish with ALL missiles ina cerberus for example (the ship that effectively mos tuse rapid launchers). 20 k damage.. no matter how you stagger it. You are just somethign lauguable. You will VERY rappdly brign your enemy to low armor.. then do nothing.. until he gets away or kills you.


That is NOT good!

Ever heard of the rabbit and the turtle child story? You know wich one won at the end?


This just makes no sense, what is proposed atm is 409 dps for ~50seconds for a caracal (which has 5 launchers), reload time is 40 seconds, if you fire 3 launchers for 50 seconds and start firing 2 launchers on top of that at 40 second mark, you'll do 245 dps for 40 seconds, 409 dps for 10 seconds and then 163,6 dps for 40 seconds, after which you dps once again rises to 245 for the next 40 seconds. Atm you'll do 266 dps with 5 scourge furies on a caracal.

What i suggest is increasing the dps to letsay 440 at which point using them continuously becomes


264 dps for 40 seconds followed by 440 dps for 10 seconds followed by 176 dps for the last 40 seconds of the cycle.

I do not in any way understand how this becomes "you only get 20 k damage and then you're done". If i use the new rlml's in this way i lose very little dps in continuous fire (like i said earlier) and gain the possibility of bursting alot more than before if i want.

What this does is gives me the possibility of choosing, only thing i see a problem with is making sure the numbers are good enough so the continuous fire isn't too much nerfed from what it was before while being able to burst if needed.

Edit: atm a caracal can dishout 23 940 damage in 90 seconds after current proposal it can dishout 20 434 in 90 seconds. Do you get it now ?



FORGET THE DPS!! How much TOTAL damage can you do before reload? It will be less than EHP of a cruiser!! That is the issue.


Even if you have 20 THOSUAND dps, but you fire for 1 second and reload for 20k seconds.. you will NEVER kill a well fit enemy cruiser.. in fact this last example is the worse situation you could have basically


I'm fairly certain that the whole point of this change is that RLMLs should not be good against enemy cruisers, and should be a specialized choice for fighting smaller stuff, not the weapon-of-choice that lets you apply damage perfectly to everything all the time.



You mean they shoudl be good agaisnt the ships that they already shred completely into oblivion?


And that no one in sane mind shoudl fit them because, specially now with warp speed changes"the most likely class of ships you gonna fight are about same size as yours?


This is just making this weapon class useless.

Also it is stil WORSE than current rapid launcher agaisnt well tanked frigates.

A jaguar well tanked can have over 10K eahp and will nto receive even half of the damage from these rapid missiles . A Cerberus fit to kill frigates would die PATHETICALLY to a single frigate with these changes.

The vengeance would be even worse. Under rapid calculations (pun intended).. a single venageance can kill any cruiser armed with rapid launchers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#165 - 2013-11-08 17:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
This change is crap.

CCP Rise wrote:

The problem we're facing is that it's very hard to create a good balance between rapid launchers and their on-size counterparts(torpedo launchers, cruise launchers, heavy missile launchers and heavy assault missile launchers). Currently I feel we have the numbers high enough that they are almost always the right choice, but if we tune them down at all they will almost never be the right choice.


Of course ! The missile system as it is as a whole is bad, that's the problem.
Because, and it was extensively demonstrated on the article of TMC, currently Cruise missiles are SNIPE ammo, and Torpedoes are BS + Structure sized only. There is NO WEAPON that is able to deal with BCs and smaller. The problem is not about RHML being overpowered : if they are more powerful then cruise or torp it's simply because there is no BS sized missiles to fill the role. A role that precisely happen in 90% of the situations in PvP. When did you see a BS missile ship being used in pvp for the last time ?

RLML and RHML are the only weapons enabling missile ships to decently engage in pvp when they believe that there will be smaller ships. Not because there will be ONLY smaller ships, but because they know that one single smaller ship will be able to tank them for the eternity due to the way missiles work.

As such, and even if it's an interesting idea, this change will simply make RLML and RHML useless. Who would bother choosing a weapon system that, MAYBE, will help them kill smaller ships (because either they will kill them with or without this change, or either they won't) but will CERTAINLY make them loose the rest of the time ? This is also an indirect buff to buffer tanking, since the only concern is to tank the incoming damage for 50 seconds before getting 40 seconds of freedom which means basically a free kill (no missile ship is really tanky except the drake, and he was nerfed).

So, what does this tell us ? Cruiser and BS-sized missiles are crap in pvp, because they aren't effective against smaller targets, even with stasises. Whereas large turret ships can do wonders with stasises.
The way target painters work is, as well, an heresy. How do you make a difference when the debuff is a percentage ? By nature this means that against smaller ships, non-bonused TP are irrelevant.

My proposal :
1- Make speed more relevant than sig radius for damage calculations below a certain speed threshold (or for close-range missiles). So that if you make the ennemi ship motionless you don't need TPs.
2- Make Sig radius more relevant than speed for damage calculations above a certain speed threshold (or for long-range missiles). So that target painting becomes a wiser choice against fast targets.
1 & 2 preserve some love for the decision making, while enabling a new wide array of uses for long-range missiles. (Do anyone here use cruise missiles currently ? ^^')
3- Sized target painters ? 1nm, 10nm, 100nm (random numbers) target painters ! When a battleship target paints a frigate with its big ray, it should increase the sig radius accordingly to the size of weapons he is using. It also prevents abuses with small and fast frigates being used to support cruise missiles snipers.
4- New hybrid-damage missiles types ! (50%/50%) Caldaris's kinetic bonuses only applies if the missile is making 50 or 100% of its damage in kinetic (but apply to both damages). There is still the race's favorite damage, but you cannot just fill the kinetic resist and be assured that it will work perfectly against missiles and still very decently against hybrids. Keep the 10sec reload time of course.
5- No new increase in missile DPS ! Above changes make damage application easier, but paper DPS should remain the same.
6- Upgrade F.O.F ammo to make them actually useful. OR delete them entierly and create a ship-wide FOF toggle if you prefer. At the expense of missile sig radius so that you cannot just FOF if a frigate runs by and oneshot it, but you can still say NO to the nasty ship ECMing you. The ennemy fleet will have to think and manage who is the closest ship from you if they manage to jam a missile ship.
7- With these changes, what happens to RLMLs and RHMLs ? Well imho it would be better to leave them in their previous state without the 40sec cooldown. EDIT : Actually since others missiles would be more useful, RHML and RLMLs could keep their niche of burst dps with this 40sec CD.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

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Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#166 - 2013-11-08 17:15:28 UTC
So the Cerberus becomes more and more interesting...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#167 - 2013-11-08 17:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Justin Einstein wrote:
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.

I think they'll still be fine, to be honest. You'll be dealing out substantially more DPS at the outset, which should clear out a few additional targets before having to reload.

Syrias Bizniz wrote:
So the Cerberus becomes more and more interesting...

Indeed. With the range it can operate at, it makes it well-suited for quick strikes - utilizing the MWD to pull back while reloading. And it has fairly decent cargo capacity as well.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#168 - 2013-11-08 17:20:38 UTC
Justin Einstein wrote:
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.


why are you still doing lev II missions?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

zbaaca
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#169 - 2013-11-08 17:21:13 UTC
i have a good proposal. buff HML application to the level of HAMS. and lets start talking again

Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2013-11-08 17:21:20 UTC
These new changes seem like a bad idea to me. They make these weapons too niche to be worth fitting for general use.

You can't fix the missile damage formula by tweaking clip size and reload times.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#171 - 2013-11-08 17:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Justin Einstein wrote:
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.

I think they'll still be fine, to be honest. You'll be dealing out substantially more DPS at the outset, which should clear out a few additional targets before having to reload.


this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps.
the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#172 - 2013-11-08 17:21:43 UTC
I hate this idea intensely. Being a newish player (between 3 and 4 months) I was planning on using RHMLs as a transition weapon as I train for other battleship sized weapons for PVE. This pretty much ruins that idea. Now these weapons will only be a decent option for fleet pvp. That's a really bad move in my eyes.
Justin Einstein
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2013-11-08 17:24:57 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Justin Einstein wrote:
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.


why are you still doing lev II missions?


Ive been playing on and off for about a year now. These last few weeks I have just started grinding L2s. I actually just got my first BC. (Drake)
Justin Einstein
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-11-08 17:27:06 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Justin Einstein wrote:
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.

I think they'll still be fine, to be honest. You'll be dealing out substantially more DPS at the outset, which should clear out a few additional targets before having to reload.


this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps.
the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload.


Exactly. Even if it only takes a couple of volleys to kill each ship, there are a lot of ships in missions, and 18 capacity is a lot less than 30 or whatever it is now and 10 sec is a lot less than 40 sec.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#175 - 2013-11-08 17:30:00 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
If anything should have a "burst" mechanic with a long reload time, it should be remote reps.



=D



=D



=D



=D

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#176 - 2013-11-08 17:31:09 UTC
Justin Einstein wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Justin Einstein wrote:
The problem that I can thing of is for missioning. I use Rapid lights on my Caracal now for L2 missions, but there is no way that it will be practical to do this after the change I think.

I think they'll still be fine, to be honest. You'll be dealing out substantially more DPS at the outset, which should clear out a few additional targets before having to reload.


this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps.
the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload.


Exactly. Even if it only takes a couple of volleys to kill each ship, there are a lot of ships in missions, and 18 capacity is a lot less than 30 or whatever it is now and 10 sec is a lot less than 40 sec.


And let's not forget wasted volleys as someone else kills the target while your missiles are on their way. Those are going to be truly agonizing with these things.
Nantwig Mutbrecht
Perkone
Caldari State
#177 - 2013-11-08 17:32:34 UTC
If Defender missiles actually worked, it would be funny to see how this would affect them.

curius idea, i'm excited to try them out.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#178 - 2013-11-08 17:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Kane Fenris wrote:
this is false you need a certain ammount off missiles/ships. The #ships you kill before reload depends on clipsize not dps. the clipsize is smaller therefore youll kill less before reload.

I think you missed the point in my response. You'll only need a few volleys (at most) to kill most ship types in an L2, which means with a 35% improvement to rate of fire you can more quickly dispense any ships aggro'ing you. With maximum skills, a minimum of 3 ballistic controllers and +3/+5 damage/rate-of-fire implants I think you'll be looking at under 2 seconds per volley with Caldari Navy faction RLMLs (since it's about 3-seconds for me now). Faction launchers hold a bit more ammunition (my guestimate would be about 25 rounds). That translates into roughly 50 seconds of rapid firing before reload.

Justin Einstein wrote:
Exactly. Even if it only takes a couple of volleys to kill each ship, there are a lot of ships in missions, and 18 capacity is a lot less than 30 or whatever it is now and 10 sec is a lot less than 40 sec.

Capacity is ninety (90) with Caldari Navy RLMLs. Points to ponder:
• If the 40-second reload is fine, perhaps the 75% reduction in ammunition supply is to steep (perhaps 50%)
• If the new ammunition level is fine, perhaps the rate of fire increase should be 50% (instead of 35%)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#179 - 2013-11-08 17:36:58 UTC
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Lots of people not getting the potential of front-loaded dps against smaller targets in this thread I think.


This. There's a reason artillery is so popular despite having lower DPS than the other LR turrets.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#180 - 2013-11-08 17:39:12 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I hate this idea intensely. Being a newish player (between 3 and 4 months) I was planning on using RHMLs as a transition weapon as I train for other battleship sized weapons for PVE. This pretty much ruins that idea. Now these weapons will only be a decent option for fleet pvp. That's a really bad move in my eyes.


It's a completely neutral change with respect to PvE. In fact if you're smart about how you do your volleying and co-ordinate with drones, etc, using time spent warping between rooms to reload and so forth, you should be able to parley this change into a useful advantage.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016