EVE General Discussion

Time is being skipped. The player who bought that advanced character did not spend any time on it. Just money. That player skipped the time mechanic by using money. EVE does let you skip the time mechanic by letting someone else do it for you.

You're just using a very narrow definition of pay-to-win, saying that in a pay-to-win game ONLY those that pay are going to win.

And you are not "rejecting a definition", you are twisting words around. Pay-to-win does not include subscription rates, no one ever has argued that, and to pretend that my argument is the first to do so is disingenuous.

Dual skill training would make the character bazaar mostly irrelevant as most buy because they don't want to fund a second account to train up alts and for the convenience.

Go figure about why certain players would be wildly resistant against this idea.

No, you are making my argument sound overly-broad and attacking that. No one has ever suggested that the normal subscription rate that everyone pays makes that game pay-to-win. For you to suggest that I am the first is either you being disingenous or a lack of reading comprehension. I don’t need to state something so obvious as “payment beyond the normal subscription rate”, everyone understands that that what is meant.




You say that that’s not your definition, then go on to define it as exactly that. “those who pay get advantages the non-payers do not.” And, again, I’m saying that is a very narrow definition of ‘pay-to-win’, covering only the most obvious case. My definition would certainly cover that, but would also cover those who pay extra to get advantages in the game at a much greater rate than those who do not pay extra. Which EVE clearly lets you do.

Here’s where we differ:
Player A joins the game on 11/8/2013, pays the subscription rate, starts training his character and running missions. It takes him a long time to make much progress in the game. He can hardly even fit a ship properly. He has a hard time killing NPCs, is at a big disadvantage in PVP, and can’t make much money on the market.

Player B joins the game on 11/8/2013, pays the subscription rate, then buys enough PLEX with his real money to get himself a character with 50 million SP and 10 billion ISK. Depending on what type of character he decided to buy, he now has options to do all the things that player A can only dream about for a good long time: effective pvp, start a corporation and set up a POS, do lvl 4’s, set up PI…whatever he wants to do.

You say that that is not pay-to-win. I say it is.

shhh little goonie, let him get what he wants, cause then when he is out all along in something shiney you lil goonies can KILL IT!

I was going to post a rebuttal to all this. But then I saw this: http://www.systemcomic.com/2011/08/03/so-youre-mad-about-something-on-the-internet/

…and that leads to the conclusion that subscriptions are P2W since that's an advantage that can be had in the game and which can be bought for money.

At least this definition is broad enough to be useful, unlike the one you previously presented, but it still leads to the same absurd conclusion.

The production method is thoroughly relevant since it puts strict limitations on what kinds of advantages can be had — limitations that apply equally to everyone and which, ultimately, mean that the advantages themselves are equally available to everyone. In particular, it means that the advantage you want might not even exist on the market at the moment, so no matter how much cash you're willing to throw at the problem, it won't go away — no amount of “pay” will yield a “win”.

The only important part of the acquisition process is that it must include some kind of payment — it is called pay-to-win, after all.

Dude, Tipps is only happy when dissecting. misquoting and being willfully obtuse.

Give it up while you can. Or just pull out your hair now and get it over with.

Mr Epeen

So what you are saying is paying plex for skills is P2W? Glad we are on the same page!

Edit: And with that I mean; you agree it is P2W and should never ever be introduced.

That's largely because you never actually made any such qualifying statement in any of your definitions.

No, because you are still overlooking the crux of the matter: skipping game mechanics. Paying in addition to the subscription fee doesn't really matter — the mechanics are still being applied equally to everyone. The supposed advantage you're paying for can be had without paying for it. If payment or non-payment doesn't matter to the end result, it rather disqualifies the whole thing from being pay-to-win.

But that's just it: trading character does not let anyone gain advantage any faster. All the advantages have to be produced at the same speed as always. If none have been produced, none exist to be traded.

If you can't pay to get your “win” (because none is available), then it's hardly pay-to-win. Instead, you have to wait for it to become available. Dismissing the production time is just another way of ignoring opportunity cost — it's not correct when you mine your own minerals rather than buying them, and it's not correct when you compare building a character to just spawning one out of thin air.

…except of course, that you're confusing seeing your side with buying it whole-sale. I see your side. I also see that it leads to self-contradictions and absurd conclusions that make it less than useful.

Right. Because I haven't acknowledged the validity of your argument at all. Not one bit. And no part of my argument holds any water at all.

Your loaded words and phrases may set some people off, but I jut think they're amusing. Why? Because you're obviously just arguing to win. Not to understand, not to help, not to enlighten, not to learn, not to understand...just to win. Either that or you're trying to see if you can inflame me with your willful ignorance. Please, press on!