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Where is this going?

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handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#21 - 2013-11-08 10:46:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
"I went into 0.0 where there is a major war going on and I got shot at and this is a shameful performance on CCP's part no one told me this could happen. Everyone knows that being in a fleet demands no more than being a mindless F1 monkey with no more skill or attention involved so it certainly couldn't have been me who was responsible!

Grrrr CCP!

(Also goons)"


The shamefull performance on CCP's part isn't the Null sec slaughter, that was quite funny and easily avoidable if people used their brain.
It's the staging people 16 jumps away and expect them to move to the dest. system in 15 minutes under 10-20% TiDi part, only to be told 'LOL no, you have to go there' and finishing the event before most participants even made those first 16 jumps.

Baddest poster ever
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2013-11-08 10:47:05 UTC
Jack Mayhem wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
stuff 2


FYI - I am not high-sec player, have been in all high-sec, low-sec and 0.0, so I understand all points of view.

Why couldn't they make Caldari Prime event copy, just split into e.g. 6 locations (2 high-sec, 2 low-sec, 2 NPC 0.0)? Would be much better than this failure.

Anyway, there is already much written about what went wrong, i.e. good analytical read by one of smarter CSM reps (no you don't qualify Malcanis, don't worry).


EDIT: I really don't care about high-sec missioners if they lost a ship. I care about EVE being successful, and for that they need playerbase. This event alienated a portion of their playerbase INSTEAD of being great opportunity to advertise the game and create content. Look at Twitch broadcasts - at the peak EVE was top 10 with some 4-5k viewers; you don't see that every day. However it dropped oh so quickly once first wave of clueless carebears were wiped out.


What went wrong is that high sec players are damn near useless at working together. It doesn't matter where this happened we would have stomped you out and the same people would be complaining.
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
#23 - 2013-11-08 10:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Mayhem
baltec1 wrote:

What went wrong is that high sec players are damn near useless at working together. It doesn't matter where this happened we would have stomped you out and the same people would be complaining.


Yes they are. Both you and me know it. So organize your damn live event taking account that. Especially when the one responsible for Sarum -> Doril trip was CCP Fozzie a.k.a. Raivi.

It's just baffling how easy it would have been making outcome different, and how braindead some CCP employees are. That's just bad for playerbase and for business.

Also, people would not have complained if they got content and died when returning home. Now they died and did not get content. Not smart.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#24 - 2013-11-08 10:55:26 UTC
Jack Mayhem wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
stuff 2


FYI - I am not high-sec player, have been in all high-sec, low-sec and 0.0, so I understand all points of view.

Why couldn't they make Caldari Prime event copy, just split into e.g. 6 locations (2 high-sec, 2 low-sec, 2 NPC 0.0)? Would be much better than this failure.

Anyway, there is already much written about what went wrong, i.e. good analytical read by one of smarter CSM reps (no you don't qualify Malcanis, don't worry).


EDIT: I really don't care about high-sec missioners if they lost a ship. I care about EVE being successful, and for that they need playerbase. This event alienated a portion of their playerbase INSTEAD of being great opportunity to advertise the game and create content. Look at Twitch broadcasts - at the peak EVE was top 10 with some 4-5k viewers; you don't see that every day. However it dropped oh so quickly once first wave of clueless carebears were wiped out.


Baltec mentioned this already, but they'd have all died regardless. A call went out to the players who felt like helping the NPC pirates defend against the empire players' attack, too. Hell, even without that, once the target system was broadcast, the outcome was inevitable.

I do find it really funny given all the "if the highsec players stood up to nullsec, highsec would win!" sentiment being passed around the forums by some in recent months. Turns out you can't herd cats(and farmers can't fight trained soldiers) who knew?

Now, you mentioned Ripard Teg's blog. I took a look at his talking points for this, here they are.

Quote:
The attackers expected a CCP-run live event. Instead to net it out, the attacker's position is that they...

were left by the event organizers to fend for themselves;
were not given adequate instructions on what to do;
were not organized into effective fleets;
were not led by trustworthy FCs; and,
that CCP in essence led a couple of thousand EVE players into a deathtrap from which there was no escape.


I would have put it a bit differently myself.

They expected to be led by the nose the entire time and that it would all end in fanfare with pats on the back all round, and a goodie bag. At least, the people I talked to sure felt that way.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-11-08 11:00:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
What went wrong is that high sec players are damn near useless at working together. It doesn't matter where this happened we would have stomped you out and the same people would be complaining.


and why is that even remotely surprising?

large established nullsec alliance has better comms and leadership than badly organised public fleet. gosh.

forums.  serious business.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2013-11-08 11:02:10 UTC
Oh not again. Really. OP, if it happens you see somewhere rainbow farting unicorns, pls do a printscreen and show it to people, will ya. Because you play in hisec and there might still live some. There's no such in null. Despite hipochrisy, i'm shure you knew that.
To Be Me
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-11-08 11:06:32 UTC
All highsec carebears died and went back to their homes safely..

thumbs up if you like :))))
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
#28 - 2013-11-08 11:07:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I do find it really funny given all the "if the highsec players stood up to nullsec, highsec would win!" sentiment being passed around the forums by some in recent months. Turns out you can't herd cats(and farmers can't fight trained soldiers) who knew?

First time I hear such thing, I agree it's utter nonsense though.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They expected to be led by the nose the entire time and that it would all end in fanfare with pats on the back all round, and a goodie bag. At least, the people I talked to sure felt that way.


No one is expecting goodie bag. Come on, it's EVE, even the biggest carebears here know some basic rules (don't shoot flashies, don't go to low-sec or 0.0, etc.).

They did expect to be led by the nose though and to participate in developer-created content. That's the point of Live events. For everything else you have EVE as sandbox, players create their own content. And this developer-created content was complete garbage, only a very small portion got to see the content - do you think that's good design?

You still seem to miss the point. No one ever would complain if this was event organized by some players, e.g. Tuskers/RvB/EUNI/Burn Jita etc. However you should have very different standards if for major Live events created by CCP.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#29 - 2013-11-08 11:18:27 UTC
Quote:
You still seem to miss the point. No one ever would complain if this was event organized by some players, e.g. Tuskers/RvB/EUNI/Burn Jita etc. However you should have very different standards if for major Live events created by CCP.


I don't, not really. The major mistake the developers made, if in fact they wanted to play the "lead them by the nose through a scripted event" kinda thing, is that they played fair. No dev tools, no nothing. Those fleets played by the same rules we all deal with, Tidi included.

Thing is, we don't really know right now what it was supposed to be. We know what it became, though. And if the devs were "playing fair" with no dev tools and no scripted outcome (like Caldari Prime had, since the destruction of that Titan was happening no matter what any of us did), the outcome was inevitable. Did it suck a bit more than it might have? Yep.

But here's the thing. It really does look like, given the whole call to defend the pirate side of things, that this was supposed to be a player vs player group hook, fair and square.

And if that is the case, then anyone who showed up on the highsec side was as good as dead anyway.

If nothing else, it's an abject lesson of how things work in EVE, and where highsec as a whole stands on the food chain. That's nothing new to most of us.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#30 - 2013-11-08 11:25:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
By all accounts it wasn't CCP that performed shamefully.


No no I get it's the players going to an officially announced event staged by CCP. Shame on you players! How dare you think you could just go out of your habits and experience some event. Ha. Players.

shakes head
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
#31 - 2013-11-08 11:26:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I don't, not really. The major mistake the developers made, if in fact they wanted to play the "lead them by the nose through a scripted event" kinda thing, is that they played fair. No dev tools, no nothing. Those fleets played by the same rules we all deal with, Tidi included.

Thing is, we don't really know right now what it was supposed to be. We know what it became, though. And if the devs were "playing fair" with no dev tools and no scripted outcome (like Caldari Prime had, since the destruction of that Titan was happening no matter what any of us did), the outcome was inevitable. Did it suck a bit more than it might have? Yep.

But here's the thing. It really does look like, given the whole call to defend the pirate side of things, that this was supposed to be a player vs player group hook, fair and square.

And if that is the case, then anyone who showed up on the highsec side was as good as dead anyway.

If nothing else, it's an abject lesson of how things work in EVE, and where highsec as a whole stands on the food chain. That's nothing new to most of us.


You are getting there, slowly, but that's a progress. Now we both agree that the event was bad.

I agree that one of fundamental reasons for failure was lack of focus and planning. Let me quote good post from one 0.0 guy from another thread:

Quote:
Few good advices for CCP:
- make events more often so few people will attend them
- make several events at the same time to split people around EVE
- if you make event for carebears stay in hisec
- if you want carebears to shoot something bring CCP ships, titans and capitals in hisec are nice targets to shoot
- if you make events for nullsec players... don't. Every nullsec event will end in massive clusterfuck with bubbled gates and fleets in position long before you jump into the system. We have it without your help.


That pretty much sums it up. If you do event, make a plan, think of possible outcomes, and do it. Not put some random stuff (some travel, some quotes in local, some twitter messages) together and hope it works.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-11-08 11:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
Karrl Tian wrote:
Nobody's talking about Somerblink anymore. Big smile

CCP, I see what you did there.


give this man a medal, see any somer threads on first page now ?
John Cant
NEXUS Holdings Inc.
#33 - 2013-11-08 11:35:07 UTC
I logged on into amarr and hopped across to Sarum prime (where I'm normally based anyway) to find that most of the fleet had moved on and the system was running at 21% tidl. Oh well, missed it, never mind...

Looking on all the feedback, I'm glad I did, but not in the "oh I'm glad my carebear toon didn't get killed" approach (Hell, I was in the covt. Ops ship I just flew back from period basis) but simply because from a live event perspective it seemed so pointless and mismanaged.

Yes, the null sec people had a fun time blasting highsec-ers and that's understandable and fully acceptable. Player driven intervention is what eve is all about, but ccp seemed to have messed up the staging, the organisation, the travel, the target, the node reinforcement, the use of tidl, and bar "go kill some pirates" there seemed to be no purpose to it at all.

Have we had a statement from ccp as to what they wanted to get from the event, what happened from their perspective, what went right, what went wrong, what surprised them and what they will do differently next time?

If it was supposedly an. Assault by the main alliances plus capsuleer assistance vs. pirates invading their space then I would've expected to see large numbers of empire ship fleets spread across multiple star systems attacking a range of targets with players being able to jump from system to system joining or leaving the local fleet, then a final escalation through either a "secret jump gate", WH or short hop into lowsec to attack a final target, not "hey, let's all grind the server to a crawl and trickle feed lowsec/null enemies (be they npc or players) with fat juicy targets who have been lead blindly with no information to a slaughter.

Whatever the end results were (and I fully expect to be shot at if I find myself in an inappropriate ship in nullsec or take stupid risks there) this simply smells of a complete lack of planning on behalf of ccp (4 or 5 hours travel across 20+ jumps under tidl anyone?) for an event with no clear targets or goal.

If the goal was "feed the carebears to the nullsec grizzlys" then job well done..... But you've seemingly pissed off a lot of players in the process....

JC.
JamDunc
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#34 - 2013-11-08 11:39:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
This is and always has been a PVP game, you are free to do whatever you want but so is everyone else.


The only problem with that is how much you allow others in impact peoples gameplay. Currently High Sec players run the risk of a gank or a wardec etc. But both are manageable if you aren't stupid.

If they for example removed Concord like some ask, then yes people are free to do whatever they want. Now the 0.0bears like to think they will sweep through High killing 'pubbies' forever. What will really happen is the majority of High quits eve.

The best thing to look at is Ultima, without the pubbies the game dies.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-11-08 11:45:05 UTC
Maybe after the last event, you know the one they probably hoped to lure carebears into Amamake for PL to slaughter and then when nobody but PL turned up dropped 800 billion in stuff to them, they figured they'd try again and it worked this time?

Everyone knows where Amamake is...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#36 - 2013-11-08 11:51:10 UTC
JamDunc wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This is and always has been a PVP game, you are free to do whatever you want but so is everyone else.


The only problem with that is how much you allow others in impact peoples gameplay. Currently High Sec players run the risk of a gank or a wardec etc. But both are manageable if you aren't stupid.

If they for example removed Concord like some ask, then yes people are free to do whatever they want. Now the 0.0bears like to think they will sweep through High killing 'pubbies' forever. What will really happen is the majority of High quits eve.

The best thing to look at is Ultima, without the pubbies the game dies.


Ultima is a classic example of precisely the opposite of that.

Listening to the pubbies, or the carebears, or as they were called back then the "non PK" players killed that game deader than Jimmy Hoffa. And gaming was the worse off for it. That event, in fact, is what prompted the guys who made EVE in the first place, that's why EVE is the way it is.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#37 - 2013-11-08 11:51:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Also some ellipses... and my analysis as a successful senior game developer coder programmer real business manager lawyer person with several beautiful wives and 12 healthy kids is that everyone will leave EVE immediately because I was forced by NULL SEC ZEALOTS to lose my terribly fit Raven


fyp

.
JamDunc
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2013-11-08 12:11:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Ultima is a classic example of precisely the opposite of that.

Listening to the pubbies, or the carebears, or as they were called back then the "non PK" players killed that game deader than Jimmy Hoffa. And gaming was the worse off for it. That event, in fact, is what prompted the guys who made EVE in the first place, that's why EVE is the way it is.


The point I was making was the effect was the same. Ultima moved all the sheep away from the wolves by moving them to a new server. If Eve removed Concord they would remove the sheep from the wolves by getting them to leave the game. Net effect few sheep for the wolves to play with.

How did the wolves react in Ultima when there weren't many sheep left for them to play with? Yup they quit too.

Its vital for Eve to look after the 'pubbies' because if they go, the PvPers quit shortly after.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-11-08 12:21:20 UTC
Jack Mayhem wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

What went wrong is that high sec players are damn near useless at working together. It doesn't matter where this happened we would have stomped you out and the same people would be complaining.


Yes they are. Both you and me know it. So organize your damn live event taking account that. Especially when the one responsible for Sarum -> Doril trip was CCP Fozzie a.k.a. Raivi.

It's just baffling how easy it would have been making outcome different, and how braindead some CCP employees are. That's just bad for playerbase and for business.

Also, people would not have complained if they got content and died when returning home. Now they died and did not get content. Not smart.


You make it sound fun.
I wish i had gone now

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#40 - 2013-11-08 12:51:50 UTC

I think CCP is simply trying to get the larger part of their playerbase more involved in the part of EVE gameplay working better, PVP.

All the reccent expnasion are based on tries aimed to this, ship rebalance to make T1 ship more viable for PVP (lower skill entry level and lower costs), new bounty system, redesigned wardec system, new crimewatch, duels system, the incoming HS POCO, and so on. Are all aimed to produce more conflict driven contents for players prederring to stay in empire where the traditional gameplay options grow boring faster for the players.

This is good from their point of view cause extending mechanics already working fine (PVP related ones) to a larger playerbase requires less investments and less development risks.

Personally I think is wrong trying to push players, and proper gameplay options have to be given to everyone. If you try to force someone in a gameplay they feell uncomfortable they will not move, no matter how you incentive it, they will quit. And in the meantime you'll have nerfed/trivialized that gameplay.

I'd rather prefer to see them developing proper HS related gameplay: HS is the majority of EVE players so CCP cannot ignore them, and if is unable to cater proper gameplay for them then the only alternative will be to undersell or nerf/lower the rest. This has been already done in some parts of the game.

I know some players organization think "we grief then till they quit so we'll have more attention for us". This can be a good forum troll, but thinking a game company would or could ignore the players demographic or market trends is simply stupid; trolls do not pay your bills.


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