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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#21 - 2013-11-08 11:50:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeda Maxwell
A weapon system that I can only use for 2 minutes (like the new RLML's) before a 40 second reload is useless at that point I'm better of sacrificing a rig slot for a T2 rigor and carrying a crash pill on a HAM ship. To many small cruiser engagements last more then 2 minutes and there's other options for clearing tackle. Also with the prevalence of T1 logi in the current meta I'm unlike to kill anything but maybe a tackler in that time window.

Also light and heavy missiles aren't currently a dps weapon (nor are they used that way) they're an alpha weapon as showcased by talwar fleets.

Currently rapid lights are picked because of their *reliable* damage application. The problem isn't that rapid lights are to good the problem is that you nerfed heavies so much that on field damage application is worse then that of rapid lights because they have terrible explosion characteristics.

The reason things like rlml are so good, is because they apply almost all their damage, they are partially e-war resistant (td's are useless and you can load auto-targeting) and they use so little powergrid that you can still massively overtank the ships you put them on.

Rapid Heavies looked a little underwhelming and you should probably change them from the original idea, but all rapid lights really need imho is making them harder to fit so you have to sacrifice some tank in order to fit them.
Resi Kaae
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-11-08 11:52:16 UTC
I like, no idea whether it'd be balanced or whatever but it's an interesting direction to take them and I'm sure they'll be adjusted swiftly if they become problematic.
Miaaaw
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-11-08 11:52:55 UTC
That's an interesting idea, sounds like an Ancillary Missile Launcher, so just go for a new module. Please don't break an alrdeady viable one. Rapid light missile launchers were about losing dps to shoot smaller target, that works why would you change it ? If you want to add "new" (ololol) game mechanics you don't necessarily need to remove old ones.

PS :
You guys seems to rly like that burst + Long reload time thing, that lack of imagination is getting a bit boring.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-11-08 11:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi!

As you guys know, we're introducing Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers in Rubicon for battleships that will echo the Rapid Light Launchers in design. Well, now that the current design has been out and available for discussion for awhile, we've taken on a lot of feedback and we don't feel completely satisfied with them.

The problem we're facing is that it's very hard to create a good balance between rapid launchers and their on-size counterparts(torpedo launchers, cruise launchers, heavy missile launchers and heavy assault missile launchers). Currently I feel we have the numbers high enough that they are almost always the right choice, but if we tune them down at all they will almost never be the right choice. We would much rather that the decision to use rapid launchers depended heavily on context and that you would choose them not because they were generally better than their competition but because your specific situation called for them.

Here's the plan to improve the situation:

Rapid Launchers (both Light and Heavy) will be changed to have a much higher damage per second number, roughly on par with Heavy Assault Launchers and Torpedo Launchers respectively, but their ammo capacity will be reduced and their reload time will be increased increased (think Ancilliary Shield Boosters). Some specifics:

Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Light Missile Launcher I ------------------------- 7.8s
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II ------------------------- 6.24s
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher --- 6.24s
Other meta types not shown

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------------------ 6.48s
Rapid Heavy Missile launcher II ------------------------- 5.185s
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------ 5.185s
Other meta types not shown

Reload time for both groups set to 40 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 18 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 23 charges

This translates to a Raven with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 926 dps
This translates to a Caracal with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Light Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 409 dps

Both ships would have around 50 seconds of up time followed by 40 seconds of reload meaning that over extended engagements their true dps would be a bit more than half of the dps number above.

This would provide new strategic gameplay for Rapid Missile users as well as their opponents. It would make these systems stronger against ships that can be killed inside the active window(smaller ships) but worse over longer fights, which would usually mean fights against ships in the same class or larger. It would generally be more interesting but would also leave more space for the main missile systems to thrive as well.

Let me know what you think and keep in mind that numbers may be adjusted slightly as we continue to test.
Thanks



You simply destroyed my best ship (cerberus with rapid launchers). With that long reload time I cannot kill anythign meaningful (and i need rapid launchers because hamds do not fit with an useful fit). Mehh 1 billion isp spent on a ship that will be thrown in garbage can now.

Also that cahnge makes ROF bonus on launchrs a VERY SAD feature :/


Think about those numbers.. make a few more charges. So that you can kill acruiser with it.

OThewrwise you jus tmade the weapon useles for SOLO and small gang work. Surprise.. as if this was not a trend in game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#25 - 2013-11-08 11:54:22 UTC
CCP Rise
Bringing Solo Back
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-11-08 11:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
CCP Rise
Bringing Solo Back



those changes HURT solo. Solo ships that used rapid laucnhers now cannto kill anything of their size before reloading. 20K damage is not enough (specially sicne a lot will be mitigated). THey need at MINIMUM 22 charges (rapids).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kane Fenris
NWP
#27 - 2013-11-08 11:57:56 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
A weapon system that I can only use for 2 minutes (like the new RLML's) before a 40 second reload is useless at that point I'm better of sacrificing a rig slot for a T2 rigor and carrying a crash pill on a HAM ship. To many small cruiser engagements last more then 2 minutes and there's other options for clearing tackle. Also with the prevalence of T1 logi in the current meta I'm unlike to kill anything but maybe a tackler in that time window.


you do realize higher dps while firing will break tanks easier

and dmg goes down over time gradually if 1x reload suffice you still have 292 dps over 140s in case of fozzies RLML Cara example thats about what it does now.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-11-08 11:58:05 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
CCP Rise
Bringing Solo Back



those changes HURT solo. Solo ships that used rapid laucnhers now cannto kill anything of their size before reloading.

I too have problems understanding situational irony.
Shinah Myst
Celestial Dragon
#29 - 2013-11-08 11:59:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Rapid Launchers (both Light and Heavy) will be changed to have a much higher damage per second number, roughly on par with Heavy Assault Launchers and Torpedo Launchers respectively, but their ammo capacity will be reduced and their reload time will be increased increased (think Ancilliary Shield Boosters).

No. ASB-like reload time is a hack, not a solution. If you can't balance them, don't introduce them.
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-11-08 12:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: GallowsCalibrator
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
CCP Rise
Bringing Solo Back



those changes HURT solo. Solo ships that used rapid laucnhers now cannto kill anything of their size before reloading.


Oh hey I guess the part where these launchers are meant to be used to engage ships smaller than their own size just went 'whoosh'. Here, i'll quote it for you.

CCP Rise wrote:
This would provide new strategic gameplay for Rapid Missile users as well as their opponents. It would make these systems stronger against ships that can be killed inside the active window(smaller ships) but worse over longer fights, which would usually mean fights against ships in the same class or larger.


Seriously, these launchers would provide an essentially unique role in weapons in Eve at the moment (front loaded DPS with enhanced damage application; no other weapon system works this way currently). More interesting toys in the sandbox generally leads to more interesting things happen.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#31 - 2013-11-08 12:01:55 UTC
Also I forgot to mention this in my first post:

A 40 second reload means you might as well give all the Caldari ships their Kinetic bonus back, because not being able to select damage type due to it taking 40 seconds is a MASSIVE nerf, which by itself will make me not the pick the weapon system ever again on anything other then ships that are already heavily bonused for a single damage type.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-11-08 12:03:40 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
A weapon system that I can only use for 2 minutes (like the new RLML's) before a 40 second reload is useless at that point I'm better of sacrificing a rig slot for a T2 rigor and carrying a crash pill on a HAM ship. To many small cruiser engagements last more then 2 minutes and there's other options for clearing tackle. Also with the prevalence of T1 logi in the current meta I'm unlike to kill anything but maybe a tackler in that time window.


you do realize higher dps while firing will break tanks easier

and dmg goes down over time gradually if 1x reload suffice you still have 292 dps over 140s in case of fozzies RLML Cara example thats about what it does now.



A single 1600 plate in a cruiser will make a rapid missile user.. laughable.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-11-08 12:05:24 UTC
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
CCP Rise
Bringing Solo Back



those changes HURT solo. Solo ships that used rapid laucnhers now cannto kill anything of their size before reloading.


Oh hey I guess the part where these launchers are meant to be used to engage ships smaller than their own size just went 'whoosh'. Here, i'll quote it for you.

CCP Rise wrote:
This would provide new strategic gameplay for Rapid Missile users as well as their opponents. It would make these systems stronger against ships that can be killed inside the active window(smaller ships) but worse over longer fights, which would usually mean fights against ships in the same class or larger.


Seriously, these launchers would provide an essentially unique role in weapons in Eve at the moment (front loaded DPS with enhanced damage application; no other weapon system works this way currently). More interesting toys in the sandbox generally leads to more interesting things happen.



You mean it wil be useful when you ahve a SINGLE enemy to fire? When they have 2 t2 frigates you are ******?

great..

I know goons only fly in lbobs, but some peopel liek to fly solo or in pairs. And this changes hurt a LOT

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-11-08 12:05:56 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



You simply destroyed my best ship (cerberus with rapid launchers). With that long reload time I cannot kill anythign meaningful (and i need rapid launchers because hamds do not fit with an useful fit). Mehh 1 billion isp spent on a ship that will be thrown in garbage can now.

Also that cahnge makes ROF bonus on launchrs a VERY SAD feature :/


Think about those numbers.. make a few more charges. So that you can kill acruiser with it.

OThewrwise you jus tmade the weapon useles for SOLO and small gang work. Surprise.. as if this was not a trend in game.


I fail to see how 800dps in a cerberus for 40 seconds that applies on like any ship it shoots at is a reason to "throw it in the garbage can".

Its the same DPS as before. If your opponent can burst tank 40 seconds of 800 dps he can tank a consistent 400 dps too.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Jack bubu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-11-08 12:07:17 UTC
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
CCP Rise
Bringing Solo Back



those changes HURT solo. Solo ships that used rapid laucnhers now cannto kill anything of their size before reloading.


Oh hey I guess the part where these launchers are meant to be used to engage ships smaller than their own size just went 'whoosh'. Here, i'll quote it for you.

CCP Rise wrote:
This would provide new strategic gameplay for Rapid Missile users as well as their opponents. It would make these systems stronger against ships that can be killed inside the active window(smaller ships) but worse over longer fights, which would usually mean fights against ships in the same class or larger.


Seriously, these launchers would provide an essentially unique role in weapons in Eve at the moment (front loaded DPS with enhanced damage application; no other weapon system works this way currently). More interesting toys in the sandbox generally leads to more interesting things happen.

except that the proposed DPS does not justify the 40 second reload time.
Volstruis
Mise en Abyme
The Ancients.
#36 - 2013-11-08 12:09:03 UTC
Sad and happy at the same time.

Rise is officially the anti-solo.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#37 - 2013-11-08 12:10:49 UTC
Hmm i havent played much with rapid light missiles or tested the heavy variant but i get a feeling this is gonna be like flying a hauler through lowsec with a ecm mod on it to roll the dice and hopefully jam someone so they cant point you Lol

Whats the reload time on light blasters or medium blasters compared to the rapid light and rapid heavy launchers?
Manks Girl
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2013-11-08 12:11:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
CCP Rise
Bringing Solo Back



those changes HURT solo. Solo ships that used rapid laucnhers now cannto kill anything of their size before reloading.


Oh hey I guess the part where these launchers are meant to be used to engage ships smaller than their own size just went 'whoosh'. Here, i'll quote it for you.

CCP Rise wrote:
This would provide new strategic gameplay for Rapid Missile users as well as their opponents. It would make these systems stronger against ships that can be killed inside the active window(smaller ships) but worse over longer fights, which would usually mean fights against ships in the same class or larger.


Seriously, these launchers would provide an essentially unique role in weapons in Eve at the moment (front loaded DPS with enhanced damage application; no other weapon system works this way currently). More interesting toys in the sandbox generally leads to more interesting things happen.



You mean it wil be useful when you ahve a SINGLE enemy to fire? When they have 2 t2 frigates you are ******?

great..

I know goons only fly in lbobs, but some peopel liek to fly solo or in pairs. And this changes hurt a LOT


This ^

Say goodbye to solo RLML pvp and be forced to fly in larger fleets because of its limitation, it is a really short sighted approach in my opinion.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#39 - 2013-11-08 12:12:14 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
A weapon system that I can only use for 2 minutes (like the new RLML's) before a 40 second reload is useless at that point I'm better of sacrificing a rig slot for a T2 rigor and carrying a crash pill on a HAM ship. To many small cruiser engagements last more then 2 minutes and there's other options for clearing tackle. Also with the prevalence of T1 logi in the current meta I'm unlike to kill anything but maybe a tackler in that time window.


you do realize higher dps while firing will break tanks easier

and dmg goes down over time gradually if 1x reload suffice you still have 292 dps over 140s in case of fozzies RLML Cara example thats about what it does now.



A single 1600 plate in a cruiser will make a rapid missile user.. laughable.


i did not say the rlml will be as good as before just that it needs to have a closer look before everybody screams it is s****

there are clearly bad things like all valid solo ships vanishing one after another
i just tried to pint out that there might be something positive to the change.

this is a "second" first iteration maybe dmg gets tuned down a bit so that reload timer can goe to 20-30 s?
which keeps characteristics but eases the situation.
who knows we need to have testing and a critical discussion not a witch hunt.

i like the thought behind the change (while i still sad to loose the current rlml cara...)
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-11-08 12:13:30 UTC
Janeway84 wrote:
flying a hauler through lowsec with a ecm mod on it to roll the dice and hopefully jam someone so they cant point you Lol


You don't have to roll a dice because you would simply die before even locking the opponent

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us