These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Plex for 2 skills!

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-11-07 21:14:45 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
NFain wrote:
Lol

Since we have dual character training and such, mind if we add plex for 2 skills to be trained at the same time? Bear


Pay2Win is bad, mmmmmmmkay?


MINE!

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Richard Ramlrez
Doomheim
#62 - 2013-11-07 21:34:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Ramlrez
How about being able to train 2 skills in the same character without PLEX?


Like the secondary trained skill would take 50% longer to finish. That way we could do train for another aspect of the game while still training for the one we currently are devoted to.
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#63 - 2013-11-07 23:03:47 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
NFain wrote:
Lol

Since we have dual character training and such, mind if we add plex for 2 skills to be trained at the same time? Bear


Pay2Win is bad, mmmmmmmkay?


I would love to hear how EVE is not already P2W.

Good luck, you're going to need it!

Bacon makes us stronger
NFain
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2013-11-08 02:43:12 UTC
Carmen Electra wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
NFain wrote:
Lol

Since we have dual character training and such, mind if we add plex for 2 skills to be trained at the same time? Bear


Pay2Win is bad, mmmmmmmkay?


I would love to hear how EVE is not already P2W.

Good luck, you're going to need it!


right? Common people, who's in for twice the skills? :D
Saeri Averes-Vith
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-11-08 08:32:21 UTC
I don't see training 2 skills as P2W or circumventing mechanics, as Tippia claimed.

But even as someone who has more ISK than SP, I would not really want to see such a system implemented as it just doesn't feel right.

There's a certain amount of pride that someone who invested a lot of patience into training his skills can wear.
It would just be a nasty punch in the face for those people.

But I'm also against buying chars or having alts in the first place, so what do I know.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-11-08 08:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Smohq Anmirorz
A player creates a character and skills up the exact minimum necessary to fly a carrier, then offers to sell it on the forums.

EVE creates a character already skilled up to the exact minimum necessary to fly the exact same character. Then offers to sell it at a PLEX price equivalent to what the player is selling his for.

One 'bypasses mechanics', the other one doesn't. They both offer the buyer of the character the exact same thing, and can both be acquired by paying enough money.

The point being that buying characters is not really much different from bypassing mechanics.

Just food for thought.
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-11-08 10:31:51 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
NFain wrote:
Lol

Since we have dual character training and such, mind if we add plex for 2 skills to be trained at the same time? Bear


While I wouldn't take advantage of it myself, I have no problem with it.

Training all skills in only 50 years instead of 100 years is not a game breaker.

Mr Epeen Cool


haha epic +1

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
S1euth
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#68 - 2013-11-08 13:06:28 UTC
Nfain, keep up the good arguments; people see them. Some people will never change their minds because :change:

I don't think you're going far enough; why stop at 2 skills at a time? If I'm good at Eve -or- life and want to support CCPs development efforts and can afford 4 extra Plex a month; then why can't I train 5 skills at a time. These are the kind of players I want to encourage in my Eve. If they are great at Eve and can afford 4 extra Plex / month, then do to the competitive nature of the market and finite resources within, then Eve will continue to become a harsher place by creating incentives for these players. If these players are just good at life and pay for PLEX, then let them have as many opportunities as possible to support CCP. (Skill points ARE NOT winning; except for the 25 players who have been racing to the top of a "leaderboard" of most skillpoints)

Further, Eve has transformed into a 10% TIDI fest with many players simultaneously multi-boxing in fleets because, in part, years ago their was no mechanic for a person to get another skill at the same time. The addition of any reasonable game mechanic or hardware improvement with a chance of decreasing the frequency of future TIDI events should be done.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#69 - 2013-11-08 13:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
S1euth wrote:
Nfain, keep up the good arguments; people see them.
Too bad he has none…

Quote:
Some people will never change their minds because :change:
Plenty of people will change their minds if they can be convinced that the change is a good one. Change for its own sake is disqualified right out the gate, though.

Quote:
Further, Eve has transformed into a 10% TIDI fest with many players simultaneously multi-boxing in fleets because, in part, years ago their was no mechanic for a person to get another skill at the same time. The addition of any reasonable game mechanic or hardware improvement with a chance of decreasing the frequency of future TIDI events should be done.
By “years ago”, I presume that you mean “now” since nothing has changed on that front. I'd also like to hear your reasoning why making it possible to learn stuff twice as fast would somehow make it less valuable to multi-box a fleet.


Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
One 'bypasses mechanics', the other one doesn't. They both offer the buyer of the character the exact same thing, and can both be acquired by paying enough money.

The point being that buying characters is not really much different from bypassing mechanics.
No. Only one can be acquired by paying enough money. The other can only be acquired if someone has actually spent time. The the difference between bypassing the mechanics and not doing is is immense.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-11-08 13:58:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:



Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
One 'bypasses mechanics', the other one doesn't. They both offer the buyer of the character the exact same thing, and can both be acquired by paying enough money.

The point being that buying characters is not really much different from bypassing mechanics.
No. Only one can be acquired by paying enough money. The other can only be acquired if someone has actually spent time. The the difference between bypassing the mechanics and not doing is is immense.


No, it is not immense, it is trivial. It is the exact same outcome for the player acquiring the high-SP character. They pay money, they jump ahead to higher-level content. That is the essence of pay-to-win: acquiring a higher-skilled character by paying money.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2013-11-08 14:08:15 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
No, it is not immense, it is trivial.
Being able to bypass mechanics is not a trivial difference from not being able to do so. Being able to skip years worth of time is not a trivial difference from not being able to do so.

Quote:
It is the exact same outcome for the player acquiring the high-SP character.
…but that's not the only point of measure. In fact, that's the least relevant point of measure. The part that matters is the character creation. Doing it in the time it takes to create a character is very different than being able to conjure one up at will. The outcome for the game is not even remotely the same: in one case, it takes two or three years for a high-SP character to come into existence, which keeps them in short supply; in the other case, it takes two or three seconds, which means the mechanics to keep that supply balanced have been bypassed.

The outcome for the player acquiring the character is also different: in one case, he can only pick what's on offer — what others have spent years developing — and if nothing suitable is available, then he's stuck. In the other case, anything you wish is at your immediate disposal no matter how obscure.

Quote:
That is the essence of pay-to-win: acquiring a higher-skilled character by paying money.
No. The essence of pay-to-win is that, by paying, you get an advantage you wouldn't have without paying. Being able to conjure up vast piles of SP out of nowhere is a significant advantage over having to wait the time it takes for the SP to accumulate naturally.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-11-08 14:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Smohq Anmirorz
Tippia wrote:
Being able to bypass mechanics is not a trivial difference from not being able to do so. Being able to skip years worth of time is not a trivial difference from not being able to do so.


Paying money to acquire a character that took years to build is skipping the mechanic of time. You pay money, you skip time.

Quote:
…but that's not the only point of measure. In fact, that's the least relevant point of measure. The part that matters is the character creation. Doing it in the time it takes to create a character is very different than being able to conjure one up at will. The outcome for the game is not even remotely the same: in one case, it takes two or three years for a high-SP character to come into existence, which keeps them in short supply; in the other case, it takes two or three seconds, which means the mechanics to keep that supply balanced have been bypassed.

The outcome for the player acquiring the character is also different: in one case, he can only pick what's on offer — what others have spent years developing — and if nothing suitable is available, then he's stuck. In the other case, anything you wish is at your immediate disposal no matter how obscure.


The most relevant point of measure is someone who started playing today can have a character with advanced skills. Where it came from is irrelevant to the fact that pay=win.

Quote:
That is the essence of pay-to-win: acquiring a higher-skilled character by paying money.


Quote:
No. The essence of pay-to-win is that, by paying, you get an advantage you wouldn't have without paying. Being able to conjure up vast piles of SP out of nowhere is a significant advantage over having to wait the time it takes for the SP to accumulate naturally.


If you are a new player and you pay money to acquire a high-SP character, there was no waiting involved. You don't care where it came from, only that you paid money to get an advanced character. Whether someone else trained it or it is conjured out of thin air makes no difference whatsoever to the person paying the money. That is pay-to-win.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-11-08 14:41:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:

The outcome for the game is not even remotely the same: in one case, it takes two or three years for a high-SP character to come into existence, which keeps them in short supply; in the other case, it takes two or three seconds, which means the mechanics to keep that supply balanced have been bypassed.


Both of those outcomes are pay-to-win.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2013-11-08 14:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Paying money to acquire a character that took years to build is skipping the mechanic of time.
You notice how, in your own description, you prove that no time is skipped, I hope…

Quote:
The most relevant point of measure is someone who started playing today can have a character with advanced skills.
No, because there's nothing in that process that describes what — in anything — has happened to the overall game. Since that point of measure is completely devoid of any such information, it is completely irrelevant.

In one case, the game contained 100 characters with advanced skills yesterday, and today, that number is still 100, even though all of those characters were bought through the bazaar.
In the other case, the game contained 100 characters with advanced skills yesterday, and today, that number is suddenly 200, because instead of buying those characters on the bazaar, the prospective buyers instead created them out of thin air.

Quote:
If you are a new player and you pay money to acquire a high-SP character, there was no waiting involved.
…and as mentioned, the individual player perspective is irrelevant. What matters is the game ecology and the fact that, in one case, the game mechanics that regulate that ecology were working as normal whereas in the other case, they were skipped over completely.

Quote:
Both of those outcomes are pay-to-win.
Only one of them offers an advantage for money that can't be had without money, so no.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#75 - 2013-11-08 14:53:18 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
NFain wrote:
Lol

Since we have dual character training and such, mind if we add plex for 2 skills to be trained at the same time? Bear


Pay2Win is bad, mmmmmmmkay?


Buy plex change it to isk on the market.
Buy a character and a ship with officer mods.

Pay to win.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#76 - 2013-11-08 14:55:55 UTC
Daisai wrote:
Buy plex change it to isk on the market.
Buy a character and a ship with officer mods.

Pay to win.
History has shown that what you're describing is more correctly labelled as pay to lose. Blink
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-11-08 15:05:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and as mentioned, the individual player perspective is irrelevant. What matters is the game ecology and the fact that, in one case, the game mechanics that regulate that ecology were working as normal whereas in the other case, they were skipped over completely.


Here is the error in your argument. "Game ecology", as you call it, has nothing to do with whether it is pay-to-win or not. The individual player perspective is the ONLY thing that is relevant. If you can pay money to acquire an advanced character, the game is pay-to-win. Period.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#78 - 2013-11-08 15:10:47 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Here is the error in your argument. "Game ecology", as you call it, has nothing to do with whether it is pay-to-win or not.
Good thing that that's not my argument then.

It's pay-to-win because you can pay to ignore game mechanics.

Quote:
The individual player perspective is the ONLY thing that is relevant.
No. It's not relevant for determining whether it's pay-to-win nor for determining what has happened to the game.

Quote:
If you can pay money to acquire an advanced character, the game is pay-to-win.
Not really, no, since paying doesn't provide you with any kind of advantage that can't be had without paying for it. Going by your definition, being subscribed is pay-to-win, which is obviously absurd.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-11-08 15:19:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Here is the error in your argument. "Game ecology", as you call it, has nothing to do with whether it is pay-to-win or not.
Good thing that that's not my argument then.

It's pay-to-win because you can pay to ignore game mechanics.

Quote:
The individual player perspective is the ONLY thing that is relevant.
No. It's not relevant for determining whether it's pay-to-win nor for determining what has happened to the game.

Quote:
If you can pay money to acquire an advanced character, the game is pay-to-win.
Not really, no, since paying doesn't provide you with any kind of advantage that can't be had without paying for it. Going by your definition, being subscribed is pay-to-win, which is obviously absurd.


Being able to come to the game today and acquire a high-SP with nothing more than money is skipping the mechanic of time. That new player, with nothing more than money, was able to acquire what he should not have been able to in a game that is not pay-to-win. All pay-to-win games are allowing you to skip at least some measure of time.

And saying that my definition would make being subscribed pay-to-win is just being disingenous.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2013-11-08 15:28:53 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Being able to come to the game today and acquire a high-SP with nothing more than money is skipping the mechanic of time.
…except that no time is being skipped since that character has been built up over many months and years.

Quote:
That new player, with nothing more than money, was able to acquire what he should not have been able to in a game that is not pay-to-win. All pay-to-win games are allowing you to skip at least some measure of time.
…and EVE does not, since everything you can pay for has to be produced using the normal time-consuming processes.

Quote:
And saying that my definition would make being subscribed pay-to-win is just being disingenous.
Any disingenuousness you're seeing is the result of your definition.

By paying for a subscription, I can acquire an advanced character. By your definition, this is pay-to-win. It is also very silly, which is why I reject that definition and offer one that actually distinguishes between those who pay and those who do not (specifically that those who pay get advantages that can't be had by those who don't pay).