These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Balancing High Sec suicide ganking by Hull Value - a realistic approach

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#361 - 2013-11-07 14:33:58 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
This is another problem, Suicide Gankers think their way(combat) is the only way to play EVE. That is wrong. And the other professions need more help to survive the combat toon, yes survive not have a way to get revenge.

And again: fit damn tank on miners. Tanked (unbonused) Mack is very unattractive target, bonused one is just unprofitable to gank (read immune to gank outside of interdiction/hulkageddon events). Skiff and Procurer will simply be ignored on belts in Hi Sec.

Also you can summon CONCORD in belt with an alt in noobship and mine safely until it despsawns.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#362 - 2013-11-07 14:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Freedom Equality wrote:

If you feel you should be able to take out ships before CONCORD responds and only lose 10%-30% of what they lose, you need to stop dreaming. Of course, you can always go in low sec/null sec and take out titans in your rifter, that is fine as there is no protection mechanic failing to do its job there.

Griefers don`t need protection. Their victims do.

You are mixing different words and their meanings. Suicide gankers != griefers. Griefing is punishable by ToS/EULA. Gankers do it for profit.

Also you forgot to factor in time that victim already spent on this and other belts and profit he made. If victim chose to have max yield in expense of tank - that means that he got more profit in same timeframe. Risk/Reward at its best. Ganking tanked Mack with 2 catas is barely profitable in a perfect (for gankers) conditions: 0.5 system with concord already spawned somewhere else, catas have all5 characters and apply their dps perfectly (they dont).

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#363 - 2013-11-07 16:03:59 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
We need a way for the average miner to survive 50% of the time when ganked by the average ganker. As in, a mining barge costing 200mil should not be taken out by 2-3 destroyers costing 45mil before CONCORD gets there if the mining barge has a booster and 1-2 resist modules.


fit the barges properly

In about 30 seconds I could whip a fit together that has well, well in excess of 100k EHP.

So lets assume a worst case of 20 seconds uninterrupted fire @600dps.

So that'd need a minimum of nine catalysts.

And my numbers are conservative, I suspect you could get the EHP nearer to 125k. And that's still with MLU fitted.



So, then, there is your way to survive most ganks. Perhaps trying actually tanking boats if you're worried about dying in a fire.

Of course, the cornerstone of eve is being able to make someone who doesnt want to die in said fire sooooo...yeah.....
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#364 - 2013-11-07 16:05:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Freedom Equality
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:

If you feel you should be able to take out ships before CONCORD responds and only lose 10%-30% of what they lose, you need to stop dreaming. Of course, you can always go in low sec/null sec and take out titans in your rifter, that is fine as there is no protection mechanic failing to do its job there.

Griefers don`t need protection. Their victims do.

You are mixing different words and their meanings. Suicide gankers != griefers. Griefing is punishable by ToS/EULA. Gankers do it for profit.

Also you forgot to factor in time that victim already spent on this and other belts and profit he made. If victim chose to have max yield in expense of tank - that means that he got more profit in same timeframe. Risk/Reward at its best. Ganking tanked Mack with 2 catas is barely profitable in a perfect (for gankers) conditions: 0.5 system with concord already spawned somewhere else, catas have all5 characters and apply their dps perfectly (they dont).


Suicide Ganking IS the same as griefing for the victim. Don`t try and hide it.

The only difference is for the ganker, but for the victim it is griefing, so let`s call it what it is.

Also your argument if that you barely make money griefing miners and killing them before CONCORD shows up, while they lose 200mil+ ? At what point do you, the griefer, stand to lose as much as the miner, the victim? That`s right, never.

Do you even realize how it sounds? Do you expect CCP to help you grief people but not help them?

Also basing your defense on the fact that the miner made his ISK already.... what if he didn`t? This is not a valid point.


CCP has tolerated you and tried to tame you, but you always find new ways to grief people. This needs attention.

I will say it again in case you missed it, the only difference between Suicide Ganking and griefing is for the Suicide Ganker/griefer. For the victim, it is the exact same thing. It is illegally attacked and dies before CONCORD shows up losing a lot more than the attacker.

The attacker claims he is doing this for profit, but when Suicide Ganking a mining barge the profit is so small it is neglijable, pretty much any other profession in EVE nets more profit. So we may need to ask, why choose to do this for "profit"? Could it be that they state they are doing it for profit but in truth they are doing it for the griefing aspect?

This needs to be looked at, as i doubt the people griefing miners do it to get rich. Also, several events has been done where griefing the miner was the only point. No profit, just grief.

EDIT: Does this also mean that is a gank is not profitable then it is 100% griefing and the attacker needs to be banned? :-) (not that i think that would be in any way fair.... just making a point)
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#365 - 2013-11-07 17:04:59 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


Also basing your defense on the fact that the miner made his ISK already.... what if he didn`t? This is not a valid point.


Why are we balancing the game around morons? You can throw a bolded tantrum about gankers not risking as much as their victims but you can't change the fact that EVE is about choices and consequenses and the miners chose to make themselves profitable to gank. And then they chose to not do anything that might cause to increase the losses the gankers suffer.

This is their fault, and no one else's, it is not CCP's job to play the gods damned game for you. So fit a tank or HTFU and go play something else.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#366 - 2013-11-07 17:06:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Freedom Equality wrote:
~lots of rubbish~

so you ignored the part where i wrote that properly tanked mack is not a target for suicide ganking and Orca with links and proper tank and remote reps will frustrate any gankers that didnt account for possible bonuses...

if you fail to understand that to combat group play you need to be sociable and find group for yourself - that game is not for you. Right now you are trying to suggest arbitrary walls in a sandbox MMO to promote solo/afk gameplay.

There is 1 more thing you should try to understand: High Sec != (not equals) Safe. And should never be. if you want to be safe - do not undock.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#367 - 2013-11-07 17:28:03 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


The average miner gets taken out by the average ganker all the time right now


That's because the average miner takes zero steps to protect themselves
Velicitia
XS Tech
#368 - 2013-11-07 17:56:30 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
Miners need protection not revenge. And CCP is trying to give them that. All i am saying so far it has not worked and more is needed to keep the miners safe from ganks. That`s what they care for, safety. Not revenge.

Please stop. Miners already have all the tools to protect themselves: fit tank, use fleet bonuses, stay aligned and DO NOT afk.


also, pre-gank the ganker (assuming -10).


Yea, with a mining ship and no combat skills, or in a hauler.... good advice. Practical.

This is another problem, Suicide Gankers think their way(combat) is the only way to play EVE. That is wrong. And the other professions need more help to survive the combat toon, yes survive not have a way to get revenge.



Procurer/Skiff should have the DPS from drones (and tank) to take out a low-skill gank catalyst, or at least damage it well (see: youtube for proof). Also, battle-badgers.

It is not the ganker's fault that the miner chooses to not train the required skills to ensure their safety.

Furthermore, before you decide that "I am an ebil all-PvP-all-the-time pilot", I have trained the mining/refining certificates to ELITE (hell, they're even displayed publicly). I have only recently (in my eve career) decided to train battleships/large weapons, and have spent most (all) of my time being terrible at eve throughout New Eden.

I have survived (and failed to survive) my fair share of ganks ... most of them induced rage at myself (WTF weren't you paying attention or .. more likely WTF didn't you expect that counter to your counter to his counter of your original counter or ... even more likely WTF DIDN'T YOU TURN ON/OVERHEAT YOUR TANK ... the last one happens a lot -- I'm terrible at eve, rememberOops)

If you go back far enough in my posting history, you will see that I used to champion changes to make hisec "safer" ... moreso than paying to remove skills (or whatever), I'd rather have those posts stricken from the internet. But, over time, flying with PVP people ... because back in '07 you still had mining guys flying with PVP guys in empire ... I started to see where I was wrong about why it should be safer for me than the guys with gunboats.

They pointed me in the "right" direction for mining (frig then Osprey then retriever) but at the same time always had me training towards some better combat ships too -- even when that meant "just throw Repair Systems 3 on overnight so I keep getting SP".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
B17332
Single Barrel Securities Trust
#369 - 2013-11-07 18:34:02 UTC
Raising the cost of a gank is not a viable counter to ganking. Griefers will just switch to another method. Also, do not forget that there are groups out there that do not care about making profits from the individual miner kills.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#370 - 2013-11-07 18:43:34 UTC
B17332 wrote:
Raising the cost of a gank is not a viable counter to ganking. Griefers will just switch to another method. Also, do not forget that there are groups out there that do not care about making profits from the individual miner kills.

Then you have the new order that doesn't even need to fire a shot to earn a profit.
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#371 - 2013-11-07 19:24:09 UTC
B17332 wrote:
Raising the cost of a gank is not a viable counter to ganking. Griefers will just switch to another method. Also, do not forget that there are groups out there that do not care about making profits from the individual miner kills.


Quote:
In general, "griefing" is a term that means action against another player that makes the target feel like being targeted on purpose or for the sake of harassment only.


I would say that qualifies.

Also, i would argue that raising the cost is a viable counter. Imagine this:

Any victim of a Suicide Gank gets half of what their hull value is worth from the gankers. That would make the victim take less of a loss and it would now be too costly for the gankers to keep killing mining barges for fun. Problem solved.

The gankers would cry that they can`t grief people like they used to but i say we`ll all be better for it.

Griefing should not be rewarding in any way, otherwise you will always find people hiding under the mighty "Internet Anonymity" willing to harass other players just to do some harm.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#372 - 2013-11-07 19:51:14 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


Griefing should not be rewarding in any way, otherwise you will always find people hiding under the mighty "Internet Anonymity" willing to harass other players just to do some harm.


Now were back to "muh fewlings" again. You aren't looking for balance, you're just upset because someone blew up your ship.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#373 - 2013-11-07 20:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Freedom Equality wrote:

Quote:
In general, "griefing" is a term that means action against another player that makes the target feel like being targeted on purpose or for the sake of harassment only.


I would say that qualifies.


Well, it's a good thing "griefing" is not allowed then. HOWEVER, you do have to understand that CCP does not consider the following to be "griefing":


  1. non-consentual PvP (aka "ganking", including suicide), including multiple instances of the same levied by one player against another, provided that the gankee is doing nothing to attempt to evade the ganker (i.e. moving systems) and/or the ganker is profiting from it (e.g. a contract to gank 50 hulks)
  2. Scamming, including but not limited to the market, trade, and contracts.
  3. Wardecs against "weak" corporations
  4. continual bumping


Please note this list is not exhaustive. Furthermore, there are also ~24 systems wherein the above are actually disallowed, these are generally referred to as the Rookie Systems.


Freedom Equality wrote:

Also, i would argue that raising the cost is a viable counter. Imagine this:

Any victim of a Suicide Gank gets half of what their hull value is worth from the gankers. That would make the victim take less of a loss and it would now be too costly for the gankers to keep killing mining barges for fun. Problem solved.


You underestimate how deep some pockets actually are....

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#374 - 2013-11-07 20:25:05 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


Griefing should not be rewarding in any way, otherwise you will always find people hiding under the mighty "Internet Anonymity" willing to harass other players just to do some harm.


Now were back to "muh fewlings" again. You aren't looking for balance, you're just upset because someone blew up your ship.


I already answered this.

Also, as i said, right now the victim loses too much, in no scenario does the Suicide Ganker - who is doing the illegal action - suffer an equal loss compared to the mining barge/freighter/marauder etc.

Once the Suicide Gankers killing miners/mission ships/haulers are forced to use ships of similar value to the one they plan to gank, all will be fine. Like you had to use Battleships before.

And about your claim that "buhuhu we won`t be able to kill everyone then without losing money" well you are not supposed to.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#375 - 2013-11-07 20:30:45 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
B17332 wrote:
Raising the cost of a gank is not a viable counter to ganking. Griefers will just switch to another method. Also, do not forget that there are groups out there that do not care about making profits from the individual miner kills.


Quote:
In general, "griefing" is a term that means action against another player that makes the target feel like being targeted on purpose or for the sake of harassment only.


I would say that qualifies.

Also, i would argue that raising the cost is a viable counter. Imagine this:

Any victim of a Suicide Gank gets half of what their hull value is worth from the gankers. That would make the victim take less of a loss and it would now be too costly for the gankers to keep killing mining barges for fun. Problem solved.

The gankers would cry that they can`t grief people like they used to but i say we`ll all be better for it.

Griefing should not be rewarding in any way, otherwise you will always find people hiding under the mighty "Internet Anonymity" willing to harass other players just to do some harm.



What a load of nonsense. You deliberately cut out the part that said combat is not a form of griefing. So far about the only noted form of griefing is killing noobs in starter systems. But with the changes to various flags--crimewatch--that has most likely gone the way of the dodo.

To be clear, suicide ganking has never been considered griefing.

So you can stop with that complete nonsense right now.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Velicitia
XS Tech
#376 - 2013-11-07 20:33:48 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


Griefing should not be rewarding in any way, otherwise you will always find people hiding under the mighty "Internet Anonymity" willing to harass other players just to do some harm.


Now were back to "muh fewlings" again. You aren't looking for balance, you're just upset because someone blew up your ship.


I already answered this.

Also, as i said, right now the victim loses too much, in no scenario does the Suicide Ganker - who is doing the illegal action - suffer an equal loss compared to the mining barge/freighter/marauder etc.

Once the Suicide Gankers killing miners/mission ships/haulers are forced to use ships of similar value to the one they plan to gank, all will be fine. Like you had to use Battleships before.

And about your claim that "buhuhu we won`t be able to kill everyone then without losing money" well you are not supposed to.



True stroy bro:

"CCP if you take away insurance payments, then suicide ganks will stop and we'll stop asking for things"
"OK guys ... that sounds alright, we'll do it next patch"

guess what happened?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#377 - 2013-11-07 20:33:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
B17332 wrote:
Raising the cost of a gank is not a viable counter to ganking. Griefers will just switch to another method. Also, do not forget that there are groups out there that do not care about making profits from the individual miner kills.


Quote:
In general, "griefing" is a term that means action against another player that makes the target feel like being targeted on purpose or for the sake of harassment only.


I would say that qualifies.

Also, i would argue that raising the cost is a viable counter. Imagine this:

Any victim of a Suicide Gank gets half of what their hull value is worth from the gankers. That would make the victim take less of a loss and it would now be too costly for the gankers to keep killing mining barges for fun. Problem solved.

The gankers would cry that they can`t grief people like they used to but i say we`ll all be better for it.

Griefing should not be rewarding in any way, otherwise you will always find people hiding under the mighty "Internet Anonymity" willing to harass other players just to do some harm.



What a load of nonsense. You deliberately cut out the part that said combat is not a form of griefing. So far about the only noted form of griefing is killing noobs in starter systems. But with the changes to various flags--crimewatch--that has most likely gone the way of the dodo.

To be clear, suicide ganking has never been considered griefing.

So you can stop with that complete nonsense right now.


That IS the definition of griefing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#378 - 2013-11-07 20:36:09 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


Also, as i said, right now the victim loses too much


Its the victim that is 100% to blame for them losing their stuff. It is so laughably easy to avoid being ganked.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#379 - 2013-11-07 20:37:41 UTC
BTW, this is CCP's definition of grief play,

Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.



Link

That suicide ganking is on average a profitable profession in Eve, suicide ganking is, by definition, not grief play.

Now, if perhaps a pilot or group of pilots were following you around Eve and ganking you at any chance that presented itself...you might have a case of being griefed.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#380 - 2013-11-07 20:38:33 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
B17332 wrote:
Raising the cost of a gank is not a viable counter to ganking. Griefers will just switch to another method. Also, do not forget that there are groups out there that do not care about making profits from the individual miner kills.


Quote:
In general, "griefing" is a term that means action against another player that makes the target feel like being targeted on purpose or for the sake of harassment only.


I would say that qualifies.

Also, i would argue that raising the cost is a viable counter. Imagine this:

Any victim of a Suicide Gank gets half of what their hull value is worth from the gankers. That would make the victim take less of a loss and it would now be too costly for the gankers to keep killing mining barges for fun. Problem solved.

The gankers would cry that they can`t grief people like they used to but i say we`ll all be better for it.

Griefing should not be rewarding in any way, otherwise you will always find people hiding under the mighty "Internet Anonymity" willing to harass other players just to do some harm.



What a load of nonsense. You deliberately cut out the part that said combat is not a form of griefing. So far about the only noted form of griefing is killing noobs in starter systems. But with the changes to various flags--crimewatch--that has most likely gone the way of the dodo.

To be clear, suicide ganking has never been considered griefing.

So you can stop with that complete nonsense right now.


That IS the definition of griefing.


No it is not. You are wrong.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online