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9362 lives saved from death by one man

Author
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#21 - 2011-11-18 15:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
Slavery is clearly best abolished by trading in slaves.
I don't think so. Nor do I think it is best abolished by refusing to accommodate to freed people because they were bought who freed them.

What does that question have to do with your and Mr. Ran'shad's expressed disbelief that someone would buy people (below market price, even) for the sole purpose of freeing them?
Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
#22 - 2011-11-18 15:23:42 UTC
Again I say, I seem to have really upset some Holders and Slavers. I do not have any buy orders for Slaves, but I do buy them when I see them being sold at a cheap price. Then I can get them away from their Masters and begin the process of getting them to freedom.

I also find some being sold in Contracts along with various odds and ends when various people are moving and cleaning out their hangers.

My Buy Orders for Exotic Dancers is clearly well below market price. I have no hope of competing with the large Holders, Corp or even the Empire when it comes to price. All I can do is give the average Pilot a reason to sell them to me so I can get them away from the abuse that many of them currently experience. If I did pay the Empire going rate, I would be able to do far less for those that are in so much need of help and assistance.
Manwe Todako
Disciples of Ston
#23 - 2011-11-18 17:20:56 UTC
Don't let the pro-slavery mouth breathers bother you Gaufres. You just keep doing what you are doing. Let us know if we can help in any way.

SANKOFA

Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#24 - 2011-11-18 18:02:11 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I don't think so. Nor do I think it is best abolished by refusing to accommodate to freed people because they were bought who freed them.


I do not believe that it is best to refuse accommodation to freed slaves that were bought free either. The slaves we are talking about here are bought by capsuleers as "collectors items" for obscene prices. A form of slavery that is made possible and widely practices between capsuleers of all races, bloodlines, and allegiances by the way.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
What does that question have to do with your and Mr. Ran'shad's expressed disbelief that someone would buy people (below market price, even) for the sole purpose of freeing them?


I don't deny my skepticism about the motives and common sense behind such actions, to say the least. What about it?
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-11-18 18:22:26 UTC
If he were oh so committed to the cause of freeing all slaves, I have several thousand he purchase from me, however it wil lbe well above current market price.

I am willing to bet that he won't be quite as committed to the cause when it drains his wallet.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#26 - 2011-11-18 18:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
I don't deny my skepticism about the motives and common sense behind such actions, to say the least. What about it?
And I tried to explain that the motives are quite believable. As for the sense of the actions - I am sure Mr. Gaufres (and not only him) will be most interested in your suggestions. A simple "you're doing it wrong" is not very constructive.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2011-11-18 20:11:14 UTC
Rytha Main wrote:
If slavery lead to the salvation of even ONE man's soul, then it would be worth it to enslave all of New Eden.

It is folly to downplay the sheer gravity of one attaining communion with the divine. Cruelty in slavery? If it leads to genuine conversions, then it is simply a testing and strengthening of a man's mind, body and soul. If a holder's slavery does not lead to conversions, then let it be known that he is not above the judgement of his fellow brethren, and the judgement of God.


One conversion over millions ? This sounds like a very small success ratio.

Gaufres wrote:
As for my extremely poor standing with my own people, I had to leave my home space because none of the Mining Corp wanted a fresh pilot with little experience. I went to Amarrian Space, because I could make a good, honest living and make a difference where it was needed. While working for the Amarr, I was sometimes confronted by Gallente Forces deep in Amarr Space. I always gave them a chance to leave so I could report that they were gone and everyone would be safe and alive. Each time, they chose to open fire and I had to defend myself. I much rather would have had them just leave and return a few days later. It was never to be. So, I am now not able to return home. So be it. Certainly no other Gallente has helped free as many people as I have. I say the proof of ones beliefs is in the doing. The Gallente State just gives lip service to being against the slave trade and does not honor those who really try to make a difference.


Be cautious, some people right here in this discussion might, whatever you say, tell you that you are actually a monster supporting slavery, because you worked for the Empire, no matter what are your deeds in reality.
Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#28 - 2011-11-18 20:52:43 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
And I tried to explain that the motives are quite believable.


To you, perhaps. Not to me. He probably incinerates a dozen time 9362 people before his lunch break on a slow day of mission running, on behalf of the Amarr Empire. When someone who so fanatically fights for organizations that support the institution of slavery turns around and says he doesn't, or that's it's all fine because he does market transactions that I can't verify, I'm just not convinced. It seems you are, but you are not me.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
As for the sense of the actions - I am sure Mr. Gaufres (and not only him) will be most interested in your suggestions. A simple "you're doing it wrong" is not very constructive.


Of course I'm not going to instruct him after I've already told you before that I don't trust him. This is not so much a "You are doing it wrong" as a "I don't believe you". It seems you do, so we should probably accept that we are never going to agree on this.
Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
#29 - 2011-11-19 03:38:31 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
If he were oh so committed to the cause of freeing all slaves, I have several thousand he purchase from me, however it wil lbe well above current market price.

I am willing to bet that he won't be quite as committed to the cause when it drains his wallet.



So, just to see, I am sitting in Amarr checking the price of slaves in the heart of the Empire. Regional Average is right at 800 ISK each. You said you had several thousand to sell, so I am going to call your bluff. Without buying any off any market, I want you to reduce your own personal holdings by 2000 slaves. I will pay you 5 times the going rate or 4,000 ISK each for a total of 8.000,000 ISK. You are not to break up any families or cause any harm to those you are going to sell to me.

When the transfer is done, they will be transferred to safety as soon as possible.

So, what do you say? Is it a deal? Who has more resolve? I am willing to put my ISK on the line to prove a point.
Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
#30 - 2011-11-22 03:43:51 UTC
It seems that the esteemed Ran'shad is speechless. Either he is really a landless Holder without slaves, has fallen on hard times and already sold off all his slaves or is too old to remember if he really has what he claimed to have.

I may have been too hard on him with such a proposal and he may be in the hospital recovering from the shock. I know the thought of so many slaves going free would be very hard on an old Amarrian's constitution.
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2011-11-22 13:39:26 UTC
Gaufres wrote:
It seems that the esteemed Ran'shad is speechless. Either he is really a landless Holder without slaves, has fallen on hard times and already sold off all his slaves or is too old to remember if he really has what he claimed to have.

I may have been too hard on him with such a proposal and he may be in the hospital recovering from the shock. I know the thought of so many slaves going free would be very hard on an old Amarrian's constitution.


It is so very sad how quickly you set a price on the life of another human being. You have proven my point that to you this is about ISK and your own ego, publically flaunting how 'great' you are for all of the cosmos to see. It is unfortunate that you simply do not get it. To us, slavery is not about profit. IT is about the salvation of the Minmatar people. Labour hones the body and focuses the mind, bringing them closer to true knowledge of God and His Will.

You would tear them away from this, sentence them to eternal damnation and set a price on them of a mere 4,000 ISK each? Which of us is the monster here?

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#32 - 2011-11-22 13:56:08 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
It is so very sad how quickly you set a price on the life of another human being. [...] To us, slavery is not about profit. [...] You would tear them away from this, sentence them to eternal damnation and set a price on them of a mere 4,000 ISK each? Which of us is the monster here?
You do know that the "current going price" is set by Amarrian slave traders, yes?
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-11-22 14:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ran'shad
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Ran'shad wrote:
It is so very sad how quickly you set a price on the life of another human being. [...] To us, slavery is not about profit. [...] You would tear them away from this, sentence them to eternal damnation and set a price on them of a mere 4,000 ISK each? Which of us is the monster here?
You do know that the "current going price" is set by Amarrian slave traders, yes?


Yes, it is a fact that slaves have become a commodity, similar to mercenaries, or exotic dancers. Sadly this is a fact of life in the market economy. I think that you would find that many of those who sell slaves are not holders, but mercenaries and slave traders of all races. Those of us who buy slaves do so with the intention fo helping them find their place in the universe and become closer to God.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#34 - 2011-11-22 14:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Ran'shad wrote:
I think that you would find that many of those who sell slaves are not holders, but mercenaries and slave traders of all races.
Mercenaries and slave traders of all races like the Civic Court or the Ammatar Consulate?

Ran'shad wrote:
Those of us who buy slaves do so with the intention fo helping them find their place in the universe and become closer to God.
Didn't you just argue a few posts above that buying slaves is a clear sign of being only after quick ISK?

Also, to quote yourself:

Ran'shad wrote:
If he were oh so committed to the cause of freeing all slaves, I have several thousand he purchase from me, however it wil lbe well above current market price.

I am willing to bet that he won't be quite as committed to the cause when it drains his wallet.
So, the whole idea of selling them above market price was yours, he simply took you up on your offer. For that, you accuse him of that being a sign of him being somehow corrupt and a monster.

I am afraid to say so, but you seem to not be making a lot of sense and changing your position all the time. Is there a particular reason to do so?
Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#35 - 2011-11-22 17:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucius Vindictus
Gaufres wrote:
I seem to have really upset some Holders


You still seem to miss a rather large point. You keep saying how it is "Amarrian Holders" that should be very upset about what you are doing. And they are, but not for the reasons you think. I'll give you a simplified explanation:

You can love it or hate it, but Amarrian slavery is different from yours in that there is the religious aspect to it. It is done by Amarrians to other races, with the goal of enlightening the slave. If we sell the slaves, we sell them to fellow Amarrians. That is why I find it hard to believe that your clientele is exclusively Amarrian. In fact, no Amarrian that respects the laws and religion of his own people would ever buy from you or sell to you. And why should they? You are an outsider to us, hardly someone who should own slaves. It is therefore safe to say that you buy and sell slaves from anyone but Amarrian Holders.

Your form of slavery is most similar to that of the Angel Cartel. It is done by all races to all races indiscriminately, with the goal of profit. Unfortunately that profit is, as you already know well, very high. Which makes it a very common and popular form of slavery that strangely seems beneath the notice of even the most vocal abolitionists and anti-slavery organizations. Many of them react with surprise when they are told that Amarrians aren't exactly holding a monopoly to slavery in New Eden, and turn a blind eye to the Gaufre's of New Eden.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
You do know that the "current going price" is set by Amarrian slave traders, yes?


If we were dabating the pricing on the slave bazaar on Khanid Prime i'd agree. That is a big misconception here because... we aren't. Or did you really believe that the average holder pays dozens of millions of ISK per slave? The slaves offered and bought here, are bought by capsuleers on a capsuleer marketplace. And those capsuleers belong to all races, different factions, and every bloodline. This can be easily proven and verified by viewing public contracts.
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2011-11-22 17:37:42 UTC
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
If we were dabating the pricing on the slave bazaar on Khanid Prime i'd agree. That big misconception her is that... we aren't. Or did you really believe that the average holder pays dozens of millions of ISK per slave? The slaves offered and bought here, are bought by capsuleers on a capsuleer marketplace. And those capsuleers belong to all races, different factions, and every bloodline. This can be easily proven and verified by vieuwing public contracts.


Well said sir. It is always so difficult to try and explain exactly how religion not just plays a part, but is the penultimate reason behind why we engage in slavery. Quite frankly I find myself at a loss of how to explain why it is a must for the salvation of the Minmatar people. I suppose that is why I am a manufacturer and not a preist or missionary spreading the Word.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#37 - 2011-11-22 19:30:05 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
If we were dabating the pricing on the slave bazaar on Khanid Prime i'd agree. That big misconception her is that... we aren't. Or did you really believe that the average holder pays dozens of millions of ISK per slave? The slaves offered and bought here, are bought by capsuleers on a capsuleer marketplace. And those capsuleers belong to all races, different factions, and every bloodline. This can be easily proven and verified by vieuwing public contracts.


Well said sir. It is always so difficult to try and explain exactly how religion not just plays a part, but is the penultimate reason behind why we engage in slavery. Quite frankly I find myself at a loss of how to explain why it is a must for the salvation of the Minmatar people. I suppose that is why I am a manufacturer and not a preist or missionary spreading the Word.


And you want to spread the gospel of your religion by threatening to slowly torture and execute the families of those who betray you. Wow, what a jolly fella you are. No wonder people are lining up to join your religion.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Gaufres
Just Keep Hanging On
#38 - 2011-11-24 20:40:25 UTC
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
If we were dabating the pricing on the slave bazaar on Khanid Prime i'd agree. That big misconception her is that... we aren't. Or did you really believe that the average holder pays dozens of millions of ISK per slave? The slaves offered and bought here, are bought by capsuleers on a capsuleer marketplace. And those capsuleers belong to all races, different factions, and every bloodline. This can be easily proven and verified by vieuwing public contracts.


This gave me a moments pause, so I give the controls of my Hulks operation over to a person training for the position, told him to try not to dent the hull and did some Market Research.

Slaves are being sold by the following Corp on the open market:

Civic Court Tribunal
Civic Court Accounting


Slaves are being bought by the following Corp on the open market:

Amarr Civil Service Archives
Amarr Civil Service Bureau Offices
Amarr Civil Services Information Services
Amarr Civil Services Information Center

Ardishapur Family Bureau
Ardishapur Family Academy
Ardishapur Family Treasury

These are hardly capsuleer owned and operated Corp. These are long standing Amarr Corp with long Empire History. This is what I could find with a somewhat distasteful search of the market in Domain Region. I am sure there may be others in different Regions of the Empire. This just goes to prove that the Slave Traders will cater to any market to increase their profits, regardless the cost to the human lives ruined in the process.

Therefore, Mr Ran'shad, I call on you to make good on your statement to sell me several thousand well above market price so at least those few thousand can know freedom again.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#39 - 2011-11-24 21:07:37 UTC
Gaufres wrote:
Slaves are being bought by the following Corp on the open market:
The Ammatar Consulate and Khanid Transport are the other major sources for them.
Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#40 - 2011-11-24 21:19:46 UTC
Gaufres wrote:
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
If we were dabating the pricing on the slave bazaar on Khanid Prime i'd agree. That big misconception her is that... we aren't. Or did you really believe that the average holder pays dozens of millions of ISK per slave? The slaves offered and bought here, are bought by capsuleers on a capsuleer marketplace. And those capsuleers belong to all races, different factions, and every bloodline. This can be easily proven and verified by vieuwing public contracts.


This gave me a moments pause, so I give the controls of my Hulks operation over to a person training for the position, told him to try not to dent the hull and did some Market Research.

Slaves are being sold by the following Corp on the open market:

Civic Court Tribunal
Civic Court Accounting


Slaves are being bought by the following Corp on the open market:

Amarr Civil Service Archives
Amarr Civil Service Bureau Offices
Amarr Civil Services Information Services
Amarr Civil Services Information Center

Ardishapur Family Bureau
Ardishapur Family Academy
Ardishapur Family Treasury

These are hardly capsuleer owned and operated Corp. These are long standing Amarr Corp with long Empire History. This is what I could find with a somewhat distasteful search of the market in Domain Region. I am sure there may be others in different Regions of the Empire. This just goes to prove that the Slave Traders will cater to any market to increase their profits, regardless the cost to the human lives ruined in the process.

Therefore, Mr Ran'shad, I call on you to make good on your statement to sell me several thousand well above market price so at least those few thousand can know freedom again.


I doubt he will, as that would mean selling their souls for ISK. I for one would think less of him for it, were he that callous. As for your other comments, It saddens me to say that you are correct in regards to Amarrian institutions selling their slaves to any buyer, regardless of who they are. This goes against everything I've ever been taught. It shocked me, and I will need to rethink my position on a lot of things. I will pray for insight and understanding.

((I checked myself, and you are quite right! Apparently Amarrian NPC corps would even sell their slaves to Blood Raiders, if they brought the ISK. This could be an oversight like the fact that "groups of slaves" aren't illegal items in non-Amarr space while "slaves" are. I'm not sure what to make of it, yet. Apparently it's ok to sell slaves to whomever, making it a lot easier to RP an unscrupulous slave trader, but it goes against much of the PF at the same time...))
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