These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Balancing High Sec suicide ganking by Hull Value - a realistic approach

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
tommy two feathers
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2013-11-06 17:30:53 UTC
why not make it so
they can't dock jump or safely log off for a 20min period
one of the biggest things i see is there impish loot collectors going unscathed
why not make it so any one looting you're or there wreck goes red too
also can you right click and destroy you're wreck before they get a change to loot it at least in high sec!!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#322 - 2013-11-06 17:39:49 UTC
tommy two feathers wrote:
why not make it so
they can't dock jump or safely log off for a 20min period
one of the biggest things i see is there impish loot collectors going unscathed
why not make it so any one looting you're or there wreck goes red too
also can you right click and destroy you're wreck before they get a change to loot it at least in high sec!!


You may want to look up what crimewatch does.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#323 - 2013-11-06 17:45:53 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough.


You missed out the 1.5 bil freighter we risk.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#324 - 2013-11-06 17:49:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough.


You missed out the 1.5 bil freighter we risk.


Well, it isn't much risk given that you guys probably have somebody to web it into warp pretty quick...which of course the guy you ganked could have done that too....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#325 - 2013-11-06 18:01:54 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough.


You missed out the 1.5 bil freighter we risk.


Well, it isn't much risk given that you guys probably have somebody to web it into warp pretty quick...which of course the guy you ganked could have done that too....

Even then it takes a few seconds for the freighter to get up to speed before they can web it, easily enough time for someone to lock it and get a point on it.
tommy two feathers
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#326 - 2013-11-06 18:20:01 UTC
would it be worth it to have a kill right last longer too and maybe sell it like a commodity for isk?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#327 - 2013-11-06 18:38:55 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


The Suicide Gankers still only risk 10-15mil ships while their potential victims risk 1bil+ ships(so 100 times more) but it would be fair now as the victim can at least pay attention and escape if he is fast enough.


You missed out the 1.5 bil freighter we risk.


Well, it isn't much risk given that you guys probably have somebody to web it into warp pretty quick...which of course the guy you ganked could have done that too....

Even then it takes a few seconds for the freighter to get up to speed before they can web it, easily enough time for someone to lock it and get a point on it.


Which puts the freighter at greater risk than the hauler since the gank guys have to use bumping, and with a webber you could avoid that more often than not.

So, you want to haul 3 billion in cargo...get a webbing ship to help you out.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#328 - 2013-11-06 18:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
baltec1 wrote:
tommy two feathers wrote:
why not make it so
they can't dock jump or safely log off for a 20min period
one of the biggest things i see is there impish loot collectors going unscathed
why not make it so any one looting you're or there wreck goes red too
also can you right click and destroy you're wreck before they get a change to loot it at least in high sec!!


You may want to look up what crimewatch does.


Since I doubt people will look it up...let me help:

Quote:
Suspect Timer

Only applicable in Empire-owned space (0.1 to 1.0), the Suspect Flag allows any other player to attack you without penalty for the duration of the timer. CONCORD and gate guns will not defend you, and the attacker will not receive a reduction in Security Standings.The Suspect flag lasts for 15 minutes, and actions that will activate the flag differ depending on the Security Status of the solar system. Pod killing a capsuleer with an active Suspect Timer will not result in security status loss or CONCORD response.

In high-security space, you can acquire a Suspect flag by stealing from a container or wreck, and by providing a remote assistance to other players in possession of an active Suspect Flag, Criminal Flag or Limited Engagement, or players who have Outlaw status (have -5 Security Status or lower). You can also be given a Suspect flag if a player activates a kill right on you.

In low-security space, targeting a player's ship (not their capsule) with any offensive module, including Smartbombs and other non-targeted weapons, will provoke a Suspect flag. Stealing from a container will also provoke the flag, though assisting outlaw players in low security space will not.


Emphasized some of the important parts.

tommy two feathers wrote:

would it be worth it to have a kill right last longer too and maybe sell it like a commodity for isk?


You can do that already.

Link.

As for the length of time, IIRC it is 14 days.

Let me add, with the way the suspect timer works (I think) if you see a gank squad on a gate, get your PvP ship, and go there and watch them. When they start bumping the target, orbit it. When it dies, sit near the wreck (maybe even orbit it with a prop mod to help avoid being bumped). Now if they bring in a freighter they'll have to be double damn fast to get away from you (be sure to fit some sensor boosters and lock him as soon as the freighter is lockable). If they try to scoop the loot scram the offending freighter and kill it. Chances are they might try to play the waiting game, convo the guy who lost the freighter and see if he can come scoop his own loot.

They might come back and try to gank you given enough time...so go ahead, blap the wreck if you got sec status to burn and don't mind losing the ship. That will really **** them off.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#329 - 2013-11-06 19:30:38 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
The first idea would allow people to go in first with some war ships and clear the way. It would add risk in the form of PVP for the Suicide Gankers. They are already doing some kind of PVP but now their targets might actually shoot back.

An addition can be made, as in during the 3day(actual number to be decided) period any Suicide Ganker should be allowed, if he wants to, to pay a fine(fine value should be directly related to the ISK value of the items/ships he destroyed, not an equal value by all means, but 5% to 10% of that value). Paying the find would end the time period in which he can be attacked by anyone.


This is a bad idea, if your people are too stupid to figure out how to shoot a freighter, how the hell do you expect them to manage to take on a guy in a combat ship?


My people?:-)

I know you are here to reject every idea but all of them would work.

Some would have a lot more impact than others, but they would all work.

Also, out of the whole EVE population i am sure some know how to take on guys in PVP ships. They can`t now, but given the possibility players might decide to hunt you just like you hunt haulers. And if nobody does well, it is a player driven Universe, if they could do it but nobody does then... you have nothing to worry nothing would change for you.
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2013-11-06 19:37:38 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Lol, when I read the thread title my first thought was "the only realistic approach to punish an immortal money hoarding, amoral demigod would be to let him pay the insurance of the ship he destroyed illegally."

I had to smile about my own bad idea for poping into my head like that. Lol


Something like that was suggested but they argued that they should be allowed to grief people all day... CCP can stop them at at point by doing that anyway.

Imagine, an Universe where the innocent are actually protected by the Police(CONCORD) in the areas under Police(CONCORD) jurisdiction... blasphemy.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#331 - 2013-11-06 19:56:33 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Imagine, an Universe where the innocent are actually protected by the Police(CONCORD) in the areas under Police(CONCORD) jurisdiction... blasphemy.


But they are protected already. Unlike the ganker's looter, who can be shot freely without CONCORD intervention.
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#332 - 2013-11-06 20:09:59 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
Imagine, an Universe where the innocent are actually protected by the Police(CONCORD) in the areas under Police(CONCORD) jurisdiction... blasphemy.


But they are protected already. Unlike the ganker's looter, who can be shot freely without CONCORD intervention.


Revenge on the attacker does not equal protection. Protection would mean actually protecting the victim, not acting as a revenge mechanic. CONCORD is just that, a revenge mechanic. To make it a protection mechanic the response time for CONCORD should be a random value. Sometimes it would just arrive in 2 seconds.

Then it might protect people in some ganks, as it would arrive before the victim is destroyed. And it would not be PREDICTABLE as nobody would know if they arrive in 2 seconds or in 15.

So i will say it again maybe the 4th time you read it(it was said before) you will actually get it.

In its current state, CONCORD is not protecting anyone. You can calculate the exact response time based on the security status of the system, so any Suicide Ganker knows how much time it has to kill the victim. All they need is enough DPS. Then CONCORD shows up, kills the Suicide Gankers but leaves the loot intact, allowing the freighter associated with the Suicide Ganker team to scoop up the loot.

It is a revenge mechanic, one that is not doing its job well as it is PREDICTABLE and does nothing for the Victim like locking its wreck down and destroying anyone stealing from it or whatever.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#333 - 2013-11-06 20:21:03 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Revenge on the attacker does not equal protection. Protection would mean actually protecting the victim, not acting as a revenge mechanic. CONCORD is just that, a revenge mechanic. To make it a protection mechanic the response time for CONCORD should be a random value. Sometimes it would just arrive in 2 seconds.


I can't kill a Freighter in a frigate in high-sec (outside of war-decs) since CONCORD will kill me before the freighter dies. It protects the freighter from random attacks, so that a coordinated attack force is required to successfully kill it.

But, let's go with your suggestion:

What would be the appropriate reduction in reward for the lowered risk? No more high-sec incursions? No more level 4 missions in high-sec? A fee for jumping high-sec gates in haulers?
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2013-11-06 20:29:26 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
Revenge on the attacker does not equal protection. Protection would mean actually protecting the victim, not acting as a revenge mechanic. CONCORD is just that, a revenge mechanic. To make it a protection mechanic the response time for CONCORD should be a random value. Sometimes it would just arrive in 2 seconds.


I can't kill a Freighter in a frigate in high-sec (outside of war-decs) since CONCORD will kill me before the freighter dies. It protects the freighter from random attacks, so that a coordinated attack force is required to successfully kill it.

But, let's go with your suggestion:

What would be the appropriate reduction in reward for the lowered risk? No more high-sec incursions? No more level 4 missions in high-sec? A fee for jumping high-sec gates in haulers?


None. As Suicide Ganking is too much as it is now. And some of the proposed changes actually make sense, like allowing people(not just the victim) to shoot a Suicide Ganker without CONCORD intervention. CONCORD looks the other way when you scoop the loot, but they also look the other way when people come to stop you from doing it again.

Suicide Gankers shoot targets what can`t even shoot back... and not like haulers will come and claim their kill right. As they are haulers. But with the idea nr. 1 other people might come for you. It is a Player Controlled kind of risk, the kind that fits EVE Online.

If nobody comes, like your fellow Suicide Gankers seem to think, there is no added risk for you. But if they come together and decide to stop you, they can actually do it now, in PVP, the EVE way. PVP`ers hunting Griefers.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2013-11-06 20:35:44 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Suicide Gankers shoot targets what can`t even shoot back... and not like haulers will come and claim their kill right. As they are haulers. But with the idea nr. 1 other people might come for you. It is a Player Controlled kind of risk, the kind that fits EVE Online.


Killrights are transferable, so they can easily be assigned to high-quality merc corps - you know, other players, to have player controlled kind of risk, the kind that fits Eve Online.

Why should NPCs help you if you fail to adequately protect your assets?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#336 - 2013-11-06 21:12:40 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:


None. As Suicide Ganking is too much as it is now.


30-40 freighters a month.
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#337 - 2013-11-06 22:09:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


None. As Suicide Ganking is too much as it is now.


30-40 freighters a month.



Some of them worth 20bil+, most of them in the 3 to 7bil range... not to mention mission ships and mining barges.

Ever looked at how many Mining Barges die? I have seen a dude yesterday already had killed 9bil worth of mining barges this month. Don`t believe me, check he KB.(i`d say who but i don`t want to target a specific group/corp) That`s a lot of unhappy miners. And his losses totaled 0.33bil. So he lost 330 mil while doing damage worth 9bil - as it only takes 1 ganker(max 2) to take out a mining barge safely.

So as you can see, a lot more than 30-40 people are affected by this, not to mention the ISK damage caused to the victims.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#338 - 2013-11-06 22:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Freedom Equality wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


None. As Suicide Ganking is too much as it is now.


30-40 freighters a month.



Some of them worth 20bil+, most of them in the 3 to 7bil range... not to mention mission ships and mining barges.

Ever looked at how many Mining Barges die? I have seen a dude yesterday already had killed 9bil worth of mining barges this month. Don`t believe me, check he KB.(i`d say who but i don`t want to target a specific group/corp) That`s a lot of unhappy miners. And his losses totaled 0.33bil. So he lost 330 mil while doing damage worth 9bil - as it only takes 1 ganker(max 2) to take out a mining barge safely.

So as you can see, a lot more than 30-40 people are affected by this, not to mention the ISK damage caused to the victims.


Post the name.

Also its still 30-40 freighters a month, doesnt matter how much isk these morons stuffed into the holds its still a very very tiny number. Fewer mission runners get killed despite tens of millions of missions being run a month. CCPs own numbers show Mining barge ganking is at its lowest point in their history.

Where is this out of control ganking?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#339 - 2013-11-06 23:15:54 UTC
Freedom Equality wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
Imagine, an Universe where the innocent are actually protected by the Police(CONCORD) in the areas under Police(CONCORD) jurisdiction... blasphemy.


But they are protected already. Unlike the ganker's looter, who can be shot freely without CONCORD intervention.


Revenge on the attacker does not equal protection. Protection would mean actually protecting the victim, not acting as a revenge mechanic. CONCORD is just that, a revenge mechanic. To make it a protection mechanic the response time for CONCORD should be a random value. Sometimes it would just arrive in 2 seconds.

Then it might protect people in some ganks, as it would arrive before the victim is destroyed. And it would not be PREDICTABLE as nobody would know if they arrive in 2 seconds or in 15.

So i will say it again maybe the 4th time you read it(it was said before) you will actually get it.

In its current state, CONCORD is not protecting anyone. You can calculate the exact response time based on the security status of the system, so any Suicide Ganker knows how much time it has to kill the victim. All they need is enough DPS. Then CONCORD shows up, kills the Suicide Gankers but leaves the loot intact, allowing the freighter associated with the Suicide Ganker team to scoop up the loot.

It is a revenge mechanic, one that is not doing its job well as it is PREDICTABLE and does nothing for the Victim like locking its wreck down and destroying anyone stealing from it or whatever.


"Revenge" I don't think this word means what you think it means.

I believe the word you are grasping for is "punishment".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Freedom Equality
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#340 - 2013-11-06 23:39:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Freedom Equality wrote:


None. As Suicide Ganking is too much as it is now.


30-40 freighters a month.



Some of them worth 20bil+, most of them in the 3 to 7bil range... not to mention mission ships and mining barges.

Ever looked at how many Mining Barges die? I have seen a dude yesterday already had killed 9bil worth of mining barges this month. Don`t believe me, check he KB.(i`d say who but i don`t want to target a specific group/corp) That`s a lot of unhappy miners. And his losses totaled 0.33bil. So he lost 330 mil while doing damage worth 9bil - as it only takes 1 ganker(max 2) to take out a mining barge safely.

So as you can see, a lot more than 30-40 people are affected by this, not to mention the ISK damage caused to the victims.


Post the name.

Also its still 30-40 freighters a month, doesnt matter how much isk these morons stuffed into the holds its still a very very tiny number. Fewer mission runners get killed despite tens of millions of missions being run a month. CCPs own numbers show Mining barge ganking is at its lowest point in their history.

Where is this out of control ganking?


I really don`t want to single people out, but i`ll quote this from a recruitment post:

Quote:
We Gank Because We Care is a newly formed corp but already reached stunning results:
125B destroyed in September
182B destroyed in October (killboard)

This was all done with 4 (four) players and we weren't whored on blob kills, all our kills are ours, no other corp has part in them.


In case you are wondering what they killed, its exhumers and mining barges.

Stats for one of their pilots:

Ship Class Killed Lost
Capsule 403 2
Destroyer 2 546
Exhumer 581 0
Frigate 3 0
Industrial 3 0
Mining Barge 363 0
Rookie ship 0 19
Stealth Bomber 1 0

In case anyone has problems reading that, he killed 581 exhumers, 363 Mining Barges, 403 capsules while losing 546 destroyers.

He destroyed ships in value of 173,608,835,507 ISK while losing 5,008,476,615 ISK. That translated to: his victims lost 34 times the ISK he lost. His Killboard efficiency is 96.4%

His deaths are mostly cause by CONCORD and other NPC factions.

If this does not paint a clear picture of what is going on i don`t know what does.

This is just ONE person, that ganked 1000 people in 2 months. One person. One.