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Fixing HAM and HML

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X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#61 - 2013-11-04 14:22:31 UTC
Holy **** you are working hard trying to fix the eve population in this topic Chessur. Unfortunately they're the eve population. But A+++++ for effort.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#62 - 2013-11-04 15:03:06 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
Holy **** you are working hard trying to fix the eve population in this topic Chessur. Unfortunately they're the eve population. But A+++++ for effort.


I think that I am going to try and make a CSM run, need to start gathering a constituancy- and the best way to do so is insulting them, along with beating them over the head again and again with the truth. I hope that I can create an effective and rabid fan base this way.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#63 - 2013-11-04 16:37:43 UTC
Fix HML/HAM to be credible weapons systems without the need for a support fleet and you will have my vote
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#64 - 2013-11-04 20:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Fix HML/HAM to be credible weapons systems without the need for a support fleet and you will have my vote


My premise would be simple:

Small gang warefare / solo is the content driver in EvE. It is these small groups of players that make defense fleets form, cynos happen, and is the genesis to all huge fleet battles. I feel that this small gang / solo is probably the type of PvP that the average player has the most experience with, because the barrier to entry is so low. I don't care where you come from (High Sec, Low Sec, Nul, WH) But if you participate in small gang / solo PvP / Fighting I want to be your canidate. It is my imperaitve to make sure that CCP and the greater eve community recognizes the importantce of balanced, highly variable and dynamic small gang and solo warfare. It would be my end goal, to give more power to small gang / solo. The power i would be speaking about would be:

1. Have a greater effect on SOV systems / systems in general
2. Have a greater effect on POS
3. Have a greater effect on NUL station
4. Create a way to make money, solely from destroying ships and PvPing. It is unfair, that I can have 300+ kills in a month, with 16+bil destroyed, and at least not be able to see some addional profit, other than loot (Which is difficult to collect if you cannot loot safely, or hold the field.)
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2013-11-04 22:50:46 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Just seeking opinions on their problems and a few possible fixes for them.

IMO

HML: hasn't been worth using since it was patched. I think they lack the volley damage that would make them comparable to cruises and lights. If I could give them one change it would be set their explosion radius to 120 or so and up the damage.



Clearly you don't get out of HS much. They still work just fine, a little less dps and range, but HML tengu's are still the go to PVE ship for explorers of null and wh's. Yes ham's do more dps, but when you webbed and can't get to the target to apply any dps.. you will understand the need for range.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#66 - 2013-11-04 23:07:40 UTC
Thankd for the ad hominem but if you check my kb I do a fair bit of lowsec when I havebtime to play
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2013-11-04 23:10:19 UTC
I was talkingBlink PVE
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2013-11-04 23:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Cage Man wrote:

Clearly you don't get out of HS much. They still work just fine, a little less dps and range, but HML tengu's are still the go to PVE ship for explorers of null and wh's. Yes ham's do more dps, but when you webbed and can't get to the target to apply any dps.. you will understand the need for range.

Reality is HML are nerfed to the ground. Comparing to RLML they have 2x slower explosion velocity and 2x larger explosion radius for almost the same dps. You get double the range though but your applied dps to cruisers and smaller ships is almost nonexistent.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#69 - 2013-11-05 02:55:59 UTC
#gorski4csm

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-11-05 03:22:08 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Perhaps rewriting the missile algorithm should be made a high priority by CCP. Cruiser weapons being speed tanked by a battleship is outright bullshit


Well, the flip side of the coin is that they never miss.

Balance one aspect without considering the other and you've got severe problems.

Hell, the right cruiser hulls are already instant death to small targets.


Turrets can miss, true
but they can also get a 3x damage effect that can be managed so that it occurs almost every hit

odd how that little fact is constantly avoided and ignored during the HLM nerf thread threads.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-11-05 07:51:55 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Perhaps rewriting the missile algorithm should be made a high priority by CCP. Cruiser weapons being speed tanked by a battleship is outright bullshit


Well, the flip side of the coin is that they never miss.

Balance one aspect without considering the other and you've got severe problems.

Hell, the right cruiser hulls are already instant death to small targets.


Turrets can miss, true
but they can also get a 3x damage effect that can be managed so that it occurs almost every hit

odd how that little fact is constantly avoided and ignored during the HLM nerf thread threads.


I'm primarily a missile user, I don't neglect things like that because of any agenda. My point is simply that we can't forget that they are immune to tracking/always hit (the odd outlier aside) and that needs to be remembered.

I didnt agree with much of the HML nerf myself and that was before they buffed all the other systems in the class to compensate.

However unless everything I read is wrong, manufacturing "almost every hit being wrecking" can't really be done as it's RNG, unless you're at the weird point where it's either a miss or a wrecking hit...and those are mainly misses.
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-11-05 09:40:34 UTC
Hams are fine good range and dmg projection.....

HML needs a little buff........ since they got nerfed and other long range systems got buffed.
Jonas Staal
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2013-11-05 10:56:45 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
I only get 25% of my DPS and there's nothing I can do about it.


This reminds me of fighting in falloff vs a target with high transversal.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#74 - 2013-11-05 11:00:02 UTC
Jonas Staal wrote:
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
I only get 25% of my DPS and there's nothing I can do about it.


This reminds me of fighting in falloff vs a target with high transversal.


What a funny thing tk say aince your own ships velocity and angle relative to the target can correct for that... where as missiles suffer no matter what so long as the target is going fast enough
Platypus King
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-11-05 17:58:02 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Fix HML/HAM to be credible weapons systems without the need for a support fleet and you will have my vote


My premise would be simple:

Small gang warefare / solo is the content driver in EvE. It is these small groups of players that make defense fleets form, cynos happen, and is the genesis to all huge fleet battles. I feel that this small gang / solo is probably the type of PvP that the average player has the most experience with, because the barrier to entry is so low. I don't care where you come from (High Sec, Low Sec, Nul, WH) But if you participate in small gang / solo PvP / Fighting I want to be your canidate. It is my imperaitve to make sure that CCP and the greater eve community recognizes the importantce of balanced, highly variable and dynamic small gang and solo warfare. It would be my end goal, to give more power to small gang / solo. The power i would be speaking about would be:

1. Have a greater effect on SOV systems / systems in general
2. Have a greater effect on POS
3. Have a greater effect on NUL station
4. Create a way to make money, solely from destroying ships and PvPing. It is unfair, that I can have 300+ kills in a month, with 16+bil destroyed, and at least not be able to see some addional profit, other than loot (Which is difficult to collect if you cannot loot safely, or hold the field.)



You got my vote. I mean it is reading your posts that helped me solo a vaga in a caracal.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2013-11-05 18:28:08 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Cage Man wrote:

Clearly you don't get out of HS much. They still work just fine, a little less dps and range, but HML tengu's are still the go to PVE ship for explorers of null and wh's. Yes ham's do more dps, but when you webbed and can't get to the target to apply any dps.. you will understand the need for range.

Reality is HML are nerfed to the ground. Comparing to RLML they have 2x slower explosion velocity and 2x larger explosion radius for almost the same dps. You get double the range though but your applied dps to cruisers and smaller ships is almost nonexistent.


Would really like to see someone run C5 anoms and ded plexes with RLML's. My RR tengu's with HML's work just fine. Yes it would be nice if they did more dps and , but they do work, and the "nerf" hasn't stopped people from using them.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#77 - 2013-11-05 18:37:47 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Cage Man wrote:

Clearly you don't get out of HS much. They still work just fine, a little less dps and range, but HML tengu's are still the go to PVE ship for explorers of null and wh's. Yes ham's do more dps, but when you webbed and can't get to the target to apply any dps.. you will understand the need for range.

Reality is HML are nerfed to the ground. Comparing to RLML they have 2x slower explosion velocity and 2x larger explosion radius for almost the same dps. You get double the range though but your applied dps to cruisers and smaller ships is almost nonexistent.


Would really like to see someone run C5 anoms and ded plexes with RLML's. My RR tengu's with HML's work just fine. Yes it would be nice if they did more dps and , but they do work, and the "nerf" hasn't stopped people from using them.


If you would read the topic at all, you would realize that we are talking about PvP applications, not PvE. PvE Has nothing to do with PvP- and certainly not for weapon choice. So please, stop trying to tell me how great your HML's are doing vs the sleepers.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#78 - 2013-11-05 18:42:46 UTC
RR tengu? People still do that?

Wouldn't you be better off with remote cap transfer marauders or something?
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#79 - 2013-11-05 18:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20269885

Dat caracool, although personally I go for the 3LSE fit or 2LSE web. But preferance, i used to fly small cap booster for some time.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#80 - 2013-11-05 19:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleb Seremshur
Chessur wrote:
Cage Man wrote:

Would really like to see someone run C5 anoms and ded plexes with RLML's. My RR tengu's with HML's work just fine. Yes it would be nice if they did more dps and , but they do work, and the "nerf" hasn't stopped people from using them.


If you would read the topic at all, you would realize that we are talking about PvP applications, not PvE. PvE Has nothing to do with PvP- and certainly not for weapon choice. So please, stop trying to tell me how great your HML's are doing vs the sleepers.


I think based on a couple of things being
a) outdated farming fit tengu
b) running wormhole anomolies
c) failing to keep up with any changes in the last 4 years

this guy just doesn't get it. When was the last time CPP addressed PVE activity - especially old content made 5+ years ago? There is a reason your heavy missiles still work in pve cage man and it's because pve hasn't been rebalanced yet. NPCs are characterised by a few things and chief among them are they're slow and have big signatures. Perfect for shooting with heavy missiles.

If pve were ever rebalanced to look like something a bit more modern you'd find heavy missiles do infact suck ass.