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Dev blog: Ghastly Hotbed Of Spaceship Trauma - Ghost Sites in Rubicon

First post
Author
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#201 - 2013-11-05 14:13:38 UTC
Major Issue wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
It basically means that even the largest explosion is of no concern to a heavily tanked Battleship or Marauder.


Sure, go run relic sites with your marauder. If you fail to hack, the container blows up. If you fail to hack quickly enough, all the containers blow up and NPCs spawn. For folks who don't lose their ships, there will still be the loss of the shines in those containers.

So you want a ship that will get to the site before everyone else. You want a ship that can help you hack quickly. You want to be able to withstand a failed hack or two. As insurance you want to be able to tank the NPC spawn at least long enough to kill the tackle and get out.

Is your marauder going to be able to do all this as easily as the Stratios or a covert hacking T3?


Certainly, the reason why somebody sets up a ship worth a billion, is to run some hisec sites worth 500,000 ISK a piece, with 0% chance to find any of the 300 milion ISK ones. What?

It makes so much sense that it just feels like masterful game development. I'll drink a toast to it when I see the first unexploited ghost site, sitting abandoned for an hour in a busy hisec system like a pearl amidst a string of the usual 8 unexploited anomalies...


If you really want to do this for the ISK (and not for watching your ship transversing the beautiful nebula and causing many explosions) and don't like to risk anything, then you are doing it wrong anyway.
Only stick to highsec is a good idea, true.
But you should also play SOMER blink, because EVERYONE gets richer there. This may sound like a lottery, but I have never heard of any person actually losing money there - that's why it is so popular.
Also you should go to Jita. It has become a nice and well-known tradition that players who don't want to play EVE any more go to Jita and gift all their assets to newer players.
So if you go there it typically won't be long until someone just offers to double your ISK.


It's not the ISK. It's doing something new and feel I achieved something when I log out. Being told beforehand by some smartass that you won't get anything worth your time, NEVER, because it's been designed this way, is not exactly encouraging.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#202 - 2013-11-05 14:30:15 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Major Issue wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
It basically means that even the largest explosion is of no concern to a heavily tanked Battleship or Marauder.


Sure, go run relic sites with your marauder. If you fail to hack, the container blows up. If you fail to hack quickly enough, all the containers blow up and NPCs spawn. For folks who don't lose their ships, there will still be the loss of the shines in those containers.

So you want a ship that will get to the site before everyone else. You want a ship that can help you hack quickly. You want to be able to withstand a failed hack or two. As insurance you want to be able to tank the NPC spawn at least long enough to kill the tackle and get out.

Is your marauder going to be able to do all this as easily as the Stratios or a covert hacking T3?


Certainly, the reason why somebody sets up a ship worth a billion, is to run some hisec sites worth 500,000 ISK a piece, with 0% chance to find any of the 300 milion ISK ones. What?

It makes so much sense that it just feels like masterful game development. I'll drink a toast to it when I see the first unexploited ghost site, sitting abandoned for an hour in a busy hisec system like a pearl amidst a string of the usual 8 unexploited anomalies...


If you really want to do this for the ISK (and not for watching your ship transversing the beautiful nebula and causing many explosions) and don't like to risk anything, then you are doing it wrong anyway.
Only stick to highsec is a good idea, true.
But you should also play SOMER blink, because EVERYONE gets richer there. This may sound like a lottery, but I have never heard of any person actually losing money there - that's why it is so popular.
Also you should go to Jita. It has become a nice and well-known tradition that players who don't want to play EVE any more go to Jita and gift all their assets to newer players.
So if you go there it typically won't be long until someone just offers to double your ISK.


It's not the ISK. It's doing something new and feel I achieved something when I log out. Being told beforehand by some smartass that you won't get anything worth your time, NEVER, because it's been designed this way, is not exactly encouraging.


People keep expecting the minigame to be skill based because it kinda, sorta, looks like a game where player choices matter. Unfortunately, it plays like wack-a-mole, with no more player skill involved then the ability to click a button.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#203 - 2013-11-05 14:47:22 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
It's not the ISK. It's doing something new and feel I achieved something when I log out. Being told beforehand by some smartass that you won't get anything worth your time, NEVER, because it's been designed this way, is not exactly encouraging.


People keep expecting the minigame to be skill based because it kinda, sorta, looks like a game where player choices matter. Unfortunately, it plays like wack-a-mole, with no more player skill involved then the ability to click a button.


And in hisec, you are 100% certain that there is no cake... but somehow they expect that you will spend your precious time trying.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#204 - 2013-11-05 14:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cryo Kool
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:


People keep expecting the minigame to be skill based because it kinda, sorta, looks like a game where player choices matter. Unfortunately, it plays like wack-a-mole, with no more player skill involved then the ability to click a button.


I feel the same. Having played in excess of 5000 mini-games (literally), it feels like a glorified game of whack-a-mole where your skill level is just an adjustment on the mole speed. With maxed skills in a T3 cruiser with T2 hacking mod, I can clear the core strength 50 mini-game in ~3 seconds, core 70 in 5-8 seconds and core 90 in 8-15. Anything over 15 seconds in a core strength 90 one and you are better off retrying it.

The loot scatter mechanic just adds to the click fest. Either the mini-game or the loot scatter alone would have been a welcome change. I vote, keep the mini game but remove the loot scatter. What used to be, activating mod via function key followed by one click to loot all, has turned into 30-50+ clicks per container. Repeat this over thousands of containers and all you have accomplished is annoying me and killing my mouse buttons.

Final note, rare storyline items are now out of balance as a result of loot scatter. They already had a really low spawn rate but the fact they appear in a random loot can means that they are 2x less likely to appear for a solo pilot. (rare bpc parts for storyline items do not follow standard can type loot distributions like the scanned down sites do.) I now have to dual client the click fest to ensure I do not miss the rare drop.
stoicfaux
#205 - 2013-11-05 15:07:14 UTC
CCP Abraxas wrote:

The second answer, which I'm going to phrase carefully because I know this'll come up again years from now, is this: Part of the long-term view with Ghost Sites is that the pirates are developing technologies that allow them to cross immense expanses - but at the moment, only under extremely limited conditions. (The upcoming Rubicon chronicle touches on this idea.) There is no guarantee that this development will mean pirates - or players - will eventually be able to, I dunno, cyno into w-space at will or something ... but it doesn't take a huge leap of logic to imagine that this kind of instantaneous-transport research might eventually be the cornerstone of new stargate technology.

Got it. Bridging is getting nerfed/replaced/obsoleted. I'll go spread the word.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Valterra Craven
#206 - 2013-11-05 15:16:05 UTC
Major Issue wrote:

But you should also play SOMER blink, because EVERYONE gets richer there. This may sound like a lottery, but I have never heard of any person actually losing money there - that's why it is so popular.


I've lost over 110mil to the scam that is somer blink.
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#207 - 2013-11-05 15:19:23 UTC
Fonac wrote:

However, i think putting hack/analyser modules in as a requirement in order to do these sites, a very very bad idea.
If you want to do any kind of exploration, and dont want to use a multi billion isk ship, you jump into a covert op.
This makes you very good at doing the hack sites, and useless at combat sites.
Vice versa, with pve fitted "dps" ships.
Someone is not going to do this with a normally fitted pve ship, which means you have to go back and get your covert op, this is a timesink, of more warping around.. this does not make it a better enjoyment - This is boring.


I, too, have no friends.
Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#208 - 2013-11-05 15:35:20 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:

1. Being able to hack a tower without some kind of hacking module just makes no sense :) Unfortunately, people will just have to bring one

4. The damage number is not set in stone yet, we will see how it feels :)


If you allow me, I have some suggestions that address player suggestions, keep in line with your intended effect and resolve lore concerns:

1) Make the site use the salvager module to access the cans, assigning it virus values, like they were used in sites prior to odyssey. This will make it more likely that a player will already have the required mod fitted and would not have to sacrifice tank to do it. This ties in well with the lore fix.

2) Scale the damage. Make the ships signature radius be the deciding factor in how much damage is applied when the site/can explodes. Like missiles, there is an explosion radius and the sig radius of the ship being hit determines if full damage is applied or not. Smaller ships take less damage because the have less surface area exposed to the blast.

3) Lore fix. It can be explained that the site is visible on basic scanner because there was an accident at the site that caused it's cloaking field to go offline. The absence of ships on warp in is because they were destroyed in the accident. The entire site will explode within a set amount of time due to some type of chain reaction taking place that will destroy the entire station. Perfectly fits with having to use a salvager to access the containers. "Ghost site" refers to the fact that everyone manning the place was killed in the initial accident leaving it a ghost town possibly haunted by the ghosts of dead employees. The NPC's who arrive during a failed hack can be explained as a response team attempting to salvage some of the research before it is destroyed.
Ansylia
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2013-11-05 16:01:56 UTC
*jumps around with her hand raised*

I still have one nagging lore-related question. In the Dev blog, it mentioned we have Crews on our ships. Is this actually true? I thought the purpose of Jovian Pod technology was to give us completely automated ships?

Quote from the Dev Blog:
Quote:
Your objective, if you wish to risk life and limb (well ... your crew's lives and limbs)
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#210 - 2013-11-05 16:27:09 UTC
If I might ask, which slot is the omega going to occupy? Will it be slot 6 like the rest of the omegas, or is there a chance a different slot could be used?

The reason I ask is that the Ascendancy implants will become pretty much required if you want to use a battleship as pretty much anything other than a defensive tool thanks to the warp speed nerf, and I've got quite a few fits that require a powergrid implant to make them function.
CCP Abraxas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#211 - 2013-11-05 16:27:17 UTC
Cryo Kool wrote:
If you allow me, I have some suggestions that address player suggestions, keep in line with your intended effect and resolve lore concerns:

3) Lore fix. It can be explained that the site is visible on basic scanner because there was an accident at the site that caused it's cloaking field to go offline. The absence of ships on warp in is because they were destroyed in the accident. The entire site will explode within a set amount of time due to some type of chain reaction taking place that will destroy the entire station. Perfectly fits with having to use a salvager to access the containers. "Ghost site" refers to the fact that everyone manning the place was killed in the initial accident leaving it a ghost town possibly haunted by the ghosts of dead employees. The NPC's who arrive during a failed hack can be explained as a response team attempting to salvage some of the research before it is destroyed.


That's a perfect description for the first site of the first pirate faction that'd start these experiments. It might work for a few more sites, while everyone is in such a mad arms race they haven't yet gotten their security protocols under control. After that, though, having to put out fires on countless sites all over the cluster would start making the brass in each pirate faction doubt whether these things were even worth the effort in the first place Smile
CCP Abraxas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#212 - 2013-11-05 16:33:51 UTC
Ansylia wrote:
*jumps around with her hand raised*

I still have one nagging lore-related question. In the Dev blog, it mentioned we have Crews on our ships. Is this actually true? I thought the purpose of Jovian Pod technology was to give us completely automated ships?

Quote from the Dev Blog:
Quote:
Your objective, if you wish to risk life and limb (well ... your crew's lives and limbs)

Ships have crews.

Pod tech helps automate certain systems to the point that capsuleer-flown ships need far smaller crews than their regularly-piloted counterparts. Moreover, it gives the pilot such immense control over the ship's various subsystems that the likelihood of surviving combat is theoretically much higher than that of ships with regular pilots and longer response times. I say "theoretically" because as everyone knows, average crew life expectancy on a capsuleer-flown ship is just a little bit longer than if you'd simply been shot out the airlock once the ship undocked.

(It's really not, though. Most of your crews have escape pods, and survive to fight another day. Your camera drones ignore them, because they have no tactical value and - because everyone knows how capsuleers think - entirely too much amusement value, brief as it is.)
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#213 - 2013-11-05 16:40:40 UTC
Ansylia wrote:
*jumps around with her hand raised*

I still have one nagging lore-related question. In the Dev blog, it mentioned we have Crews on our ships. Is this actually true? I thought the purpose of Jovian Pod technology was to give us completely automated ships?

Quote from the Dev Blog:
Quote:
Your objective, if you wish to risk life and limb (well ... your crew's lives and limbs)



The lore still has us having crews. They're just massively reduced from non-pod driven ships.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_crew_guidelines

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Chris Wheeler
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#214 - 2013-11-05 17:13:35 UTC
CCP Abraxas wrote:
Ansylia wrote:
*jumps around with her hand raised*

I still have one nagging lore-related question. In the Dev blog, it mentioned we have Crews on our ships. Is this actually true? I thought the purpose of Jovian Pod technology was to give us completely automated ships?

Quote from the Dev Blog:
Quote:
Your objective, if you wish to risk life and limb (well ... your crew's lives and limbs)

Ships have crews.

Pod tech helps automate certain systems to the point that capsuleer-flown ships need far smaller crews than their regularly-piloted counterparts. Moreover, it gives the pilot such immense control over the ship's various subsystems that the likelihood of surviving combat is theoretically much higher than that of ships with regular pilots and longer response times. I say "theoretically" because as everyone knows, average crew life expectancy on a capsuleer-flown ship is just a little bit longer than if you'd simply been shot out the airlock once the ship undocked.

(It's really not, though. Most of your crews have escape pods, and survive to fight another day. Your camera drones ignore them, because they have no tactical value and - because everyone knows how capsuleers think - entirely too much amusement value, brief as it is.)


If ships have crews, then we need PI on inhabited planets that train crews, and a fitting slot for them. You can expand on this, like crew experience, performance mods, and module-based crew requirements.

Yes, I know this thread is about ghost sites. I'm told that laziness is a side-effect of hunger.
Callic Veratar
#215 - 2013-11-05 17:18:01 UTC
CCP Abraxas wrote:
It's really not, though. Most of your crews have escape pods, and survive to fight another day. Your camera drones ignore them, because they have no tactical value and - because everyone knows how capsuleers think - entirely too much amusement value, brief as it is.


It would be a really cool effect to have ships that are destroyed fairly slowly have waves of escape pods jettison into the night.
Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#216 - 2013-11-05 17:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Cryo Kool
CCP Abraxas wrote:
Cryo Kool wrote:
If you allow me, I have some suggestions that address player suggestions, keep in line with your intended effect and resolve lore concerns:

3) Lore fix. It can be explained that the site is visible on basic scanner because there was an accident at the site that caused it's cloaking field to go offline. The absence of ships on warp in is because they were destroyed in the accident. The entire site will explode within a set amount of time due to some type of chain reaction taking place that will destroy the entire station. Perfectly fits with having to use a salvager to access the containers. "Ghost site" refers to the fact that everyone manning the place was killed in the initial accident leaving it a ghost town possibly haunted by the ghosts of dead employees. The NPC's who arrive during a failed hack can be explained as a response team attempting to salvage some of the research before it is destroyed.


That's a perfect description for the first site of the first pirate faction that'd start these experiments. It might work for a few more sites, while everyone is in such a mad arms race they haven't yet gotten their security protocols under control. After that, though, having to put out fires on countless sites all over the cluster would start making the brass in each pirate faction doubt whether these things were even worth the effort in the first place Smile


The sites that are not "Ghost" in that everyone was killed can be listed as "Black sites." (nice hat tip to "ghost ships" found in debris fields already in eve)
I would then suggest that "Black sites" :
1) require scan probes to find and require high probe strength or be given as a possible escalation from a "ghost site"
2) use hacking module to access
3) contain the more rare items for the given loot possible in that security space or contain a higher drop rate for the rare stuff.
It provides balance and mirrors the current theme of sites/escalations & possible loot drops. It would also make sense that you could find information regarding the location of other facilities in the wreckage of a compromised one. A truly 'ghost/black' site would otherwise be undetectable; only found through clues or their stealth becoming compromised in an accident.
Thank you for the reply by the way.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2013-11-05 17:37:48 UTC
CCP Abraxas wrote:
... and no bloody magic.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And if it shoots, it may even be bloody Lol
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#218 - 2013-11-05 17:42:51 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:

It would be a really cool effect to have ships that are destroyed fairly slowly have waves of escape pods jettison into the night.


That and have the screams of crewmembers as your own ship explodes.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#219 - 2013-11-05 17:44:34 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:

It would be a really cool effect to have ships that are destroyed fairly slowly have waves of escape pods jettison into the night.


That and have the screams of crewmembers as your own ship explodes.


The hammering of fists on the outside of your Pod?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#220 - 2013-11-05 17:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cryo Kool
Orakkus wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:

It would be a really cool effect to have ships that are destroyed fairly slowly have waves of escape pods jettison into the night.


That and have the screams of crewmembers as your own ship explodes.

Only if they use the Wilhelm scream.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio