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C5-Capital Escalations. Question on Loki-Fit
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Ololiuqui
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-11-04 21:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ololiuqui
hey community,

couple of friends and i wanna try out some cap-escalations in a C5-Wormhole.
as I'm way back on skill-training i was wondering if i could run this recommended fit, changing the exp/kin -membrane for 2 active hardeners instead. i could spare out to train the armor-compensation skills then.
It is just 60 GJ every 20 seconds and i was wondering if that wouldn't be okay.

Loki, PVE
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane (would like to use Armor Exposive hardener II instead)
Centum C-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane (would like to use Armor Kinetic hardener II instead)
Damage Control IIRepublic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis WebifierDual
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Loki Defensive – Adaptive Augmenter
Loki Electronics – Immobility Drivers
Loki Engineering – Supplemental Coolant Injector
Loki Offensive – Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Propulsion – Chassis Optimisation


Any help, experiences and alternate fits appreciated ! :-)
Eessi
Murderous Inc
Me Hearties
#2 - 2013-11-04 21:30:28 UTC
When your cap bouncess between zero and full and back to zero every 2.5 seconds, and your hardeners turn off, you will switch to passive (Energized Adaptive) hardeners. ^^
Ololiuqui
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-11-04 21:45:28 UTC


hm, i got no hands-on-experiance at all.
wasn't thinking that i would be capped out every few seconds, but that explains it in total.

thanks :-)
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#4 - 2013-11-04 21:53:46 UTC
Eessi wrote:
When your cap bouncess between zero and full and back to zero every 2.5 seconds, and your hardeners turn off, you will switch to passive (Energized Adaptive) hardeners. ^^



This. Get as much passive tank as possible.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#5 - 2013-11-04 21:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
This isn't my actual fit but its similiar to what I use

[Loki, Site1]
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Corpum A-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane
Corelum B-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Corpum A-Type Medium Nosferatu
True Sansha Small EMP Smartbomb
True Sansha Small EMP Smartbomb
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Core Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Loki Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers
Loki Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector
Loki Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Loki Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


EDIT: WIth my alt boosting sig reduction link it barely needs tank against guardians though :D (can keep it alive with a single non-triage capital RR against like 16 odd guardians which is why I love it over the rapier).
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#6 - 2013-11-04 22:10:50 UTC
Just a note:

You do get a greater velocity bonus out of the Federation Navy Stasis Webifier, but the True Sansha webs actually give you considerably further web range after boosts/sub system skill. However, its 5% difference in velocity bonus, which CAN be a big deal depending upon your dreadnoughts' skill level/type.

I'm not sure what everyone uses, though Federation Navy is generally the standard. I'd suggest playing with both, though I personally like the Sansha because it means sleeper battleships slow down quicker (one of my main dread pilots' disagree, I should add, however).
Ololiuqui
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-11-04 22:16:15 UTC

damn it !
everyone points to the need of a passive tank.
not-knowing would have been a blessing.

anyone wanna nurture some hope ?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#8 - 2013-11-04 22:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
@Rall Mekin - with skirmish boosts fed navy heated hit 60km and the guardians usually burn to roughly non-heated range and try to orbit - I've not really had too many issues with range though I've not really played that much since they nerfed the interdiction manouvers link.

Ololiuqui wrote:

damn it !
everyone points to the need of a passive tank.
not-knowing would have been a blessing.

anyone wanna nurture some hope ?


As someone said above once you've seen your cap bouncing off empty to full and back constantly you will quickly forget any thoughts of using active hardeners. Though if you have ganglinks I've rarely seen the loki in anything remotely like trouble so you'd probably get away with it but passive is the better option.
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#9 - 2013-11-04 22:25:21 UTC
Rroff wrote:
@Rall Mekin - with skirmish boosts fed navy heated hit 60km and the guardians usually burn to roughly non-heated range and try to orbit - I've not really had too many issues with range though I've not really played that much since they nerfed the interdiction manouvers link.

Ololiuqui wrote:

damn it !
everyone points to the need of a passive tank.
not-knowing would have been a blessing.

anyone wanna nurture some hope ?


As someone said above once you've seen your cap bouncing off empty to full and back constantly you will quickly forget any thoughts of using active hardeners.


Our booster must be doing something very wrong then.... We aren't getting near that.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#10 - 2013-11-04 22:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Rall Mekin wrote:


Our booster must be doing something very wrong then.... We aren't getting near that.


47.1km non-heated loki webs with my alts boosting setup. (Eos w/ max skills + mindlink).
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-11-05 04:10:55 UTC
You want passive tank. The dc should be the only thing that is "active". I'd also suggest not running a dual plate fit and tossing on another c-type explosive membrane. Also upgrade to T2 trimarks. It is worth it. Don't try to do this until your first loki is level 5 in your defensive and electronics. If your moros is the dread the true shansa webs are useless, kinda true for the nag, I think the rev would benefit maybe.

Non loki stuff for cap escalations. I don't know how many people do this, but our carriers will use large cap transfers to keep the loki webs and paint on. You really do need the boosts, not max, but it should be getting there. T2 siege and triage aren't needed to get started, but the cap pilots shouldn't also think that T1 is "fine" and they don't need to train towards it. Get your cap skills maxed in time.
Kryxal
Wing Born Echos
#12 - 2013-11-07 21:02:35 UTC
I'd agree about losing the dual-plate, and while you're at that, make the single plate T2 steel with all the PG you just freed up. I'd also think about fitting larger guns and POSSIBLY replacing a web with a point if you're in the sort of fleet that can take a gank force.
Sum Olgy
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-11-07 22:25:56 UTC
Assume your logi people are on the ball. If they're not then any amount of tank isn't enough. So I'll assume they are.

And assuming your loki skills are good then one T2 plate, a DC and T2 passive resists are plenty. 100k+ ehp

Mids are fed navy webs and PAWNAGEs there's no need for a prop mod.

Highs should be dead space NOS's - either NOS sleepers or NOS the Archon. When the sleepers switch your cap off there's no point in being there. And guns in cap escalations are pointless. You're there to web and paint.


It's boring though - warp to Archon, orbit at 2500, web and paint whatever the dreads are shooting at. Rinse, repeat. Good isk though.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-11-07 22:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Incindir Mauser
Ololiuqui wrote:
hey community,

couple of friends and i wanna try out some cap-escalations in a C5-Wormhole.
as I'm way back on skill-training i was wondering if i could run this recommended fit, changing the exp/kin -membrane for 2 active hardeners instead. i could spare out to train the armor-compensation skills then.
It is just 60 GJ every 20 seconds and i was wondering if that wouldn't be okay.

Loki, PVE
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane (would like to use Armor Exposive hardener II instead)
Centum C-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane (would like to use Armor Kinetic hardener II instead)
Damage Control IIRepublic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis WebifierDual
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Loki Defensive – Adaptive Augmenter
Loki Electronics – Immobility Drivers
Loki Engineering – Supplemental Coolant Injector
Loki Offensive – Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Propulsion – Chassis Optimisation


Any help, experiences and alternate fits appreciated ! :-)


Drop a plate... pick up T2 1600mm, trimark 2's in the rigs.

Try not use active hardeners for PvE web loki. Only need the DCU2 for active tank. Faction EANM's x 2.

Put 200MM guns on it with the PG you freed up. Should let you deal with the frigates if you're only running the single loki for webs. Targetting frigates with dreads is a pain in the ass.
Sushi Nardieu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-11-08 06:44:44 UTC
If your team is high SP then you can just T2 tank it with C-type passives.

The Guns of Knowledge 
Zoltan Lazar
#16 - 2013-11-08 11:54:23 UTC
[Rapier, Lol escalations]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Corpum A-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher
Small EMP Smartbomb II
Small EMP Smartbomb II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Lokis are stupid, they don't get a TP bonus and lack the mids to use TPs. This also webs to 56km cold. 50k EHP before links and slaves, you should have full links and at least LG slaves, which gives you plenty of EHP. Resists are 86/66/76/71 before links, which is plenty. The only advantage the loki has over this is a bit smaller sig, but that doesn't matter, because this survives just fine.
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-11-08 14:09:51 UTC
a) loki can kill frigs
b)loki gets MUCH better resists
c) loki gets 5 mids, which is is enough for 2 paint, 3 webs, or 4 webs 1 paint( we have dreads who like it better one way or the other)
d) rapier range bonus is mostly wasted because most dreads don't do "full" dps out that far and need to switch ammo
e) slaves? just for pve?



If have been running cap escalations for a while and your caps are good, then a rapier can work and perhaps work better than a loki. If you have never ran cap escalations before(like the op), and need help on the fit (like the op) I think the loki is a much better fit. It will tank much harder per isk you throw at it, and is perfectly serviceable for defensive/electronic subs 5 and armor comps 4.
Angux Thermopyle
Negative Density
#18 - 2013-11-08 14:26:28 UTC
Zoltan Lazar wrote:
[Rapier, Lol escalations]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Corpum A-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher
Small EMP Smartbomb II
Small EMP Smartbomb II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Lokis are stupid, they don't get a TP bonus and lack the mids to use TPs. This also webs to 56km cold. 50k EHP before links and slaves, you should have full links and at least LG slaves, which gives you plenty of EHP. Resists are 86/66/76/71 before links, which is plenty. The only advantage the loki has over this is a bit smaller sig, but that doesn't matter, because this survives just fine.



On paper the rapier is a superior choice for the bonus allocation, and I have played with the idea for years but two things have always stopped me from committing to it.
1) What happens if your carrier DC's and can't get immediately back on.
2) What happens when you inevitably get jumped.
The rapier lacks survivability when the worst happens.

Giving up some web range and a target painter bonus is worth the extra 150k ehp a proper C5 loki fit will give you. The extended web range is a non factor if you position your fleet correctly and how much more TP do you need on a Sleeper BS?
Food for thought
Cosmic Scanner
Overload This
Escalation Theory
#19 - 2013-11-08 14:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cosmic Scanner
bubble trout wrote:
a) loki can kill frigs
b)loki gets MUCH better resists
c) loki gets 5 mids, which is is enough for 2 paint, 3 webs, or 4 webs 1 paint( we have dreads who like it better one way or the other)
d) rapier range bonus is mostly wasted because most dreads don't do "full" dps out that far and need to switch ammo
e) slaves? just for pve?



If have been running cap escalations for a while and your caps are good, then a rapier can work and perhaps work better than a loki. If you have never ran cap escalations before(like the op), and need help on the fit (like the op) I think the loki is a much better fit. It will tank much harder per isk you throw at it, and is perfectly serviceable for defensive/electronic subs 5 and armor comps 4.


Agree with this. If you don't have experience in cap escalations, use a Loki until your comfortable. When you have that experience under your belt, use a Rapier with 3 Webs and 3 TP's. TP's are underrated and make a noticeable difference when running sites. All you need for the rapier to work is full boosts, a switched on triage pilot and decent siting crew.

Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#20 - 2013-11-08 15:25:14 UTC
Zoltan Lazar wrote:
[Rapier, Lol escalations]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Corpum A-Type Energized Explosive Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Kinetic Membrane
Corpum C-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher
Small EMP Smartbomb II
Small EMP Smartbomb II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Lokis are stupid, they don't get a TP bonus and lack the mids to use TPs. This also webs to 56km cold. 50k EHP before links and slaves, you should have full links and at least LG slaves, which gives you plenty of EHP. Resists are 86/66/76/71 before links, which is plenty. The only advantage the loki has over this is a bit smaller sig, but that doesn't matter, because this survives just fine.


Its an arguement that goes around in my head quite often on the subject - but given how easily a rapier can be alpha'd down by the guardians especially if you have a moment of not paying attention and/or if you accidentally trigger more waves of guardians than intended I tend to prefer the loki - while you don't tend to get too much timed alpha from guardians it doesn't take many of them to add upto 50K damage being applied within 1 sever tick which can potentially happen with more than 1 wave.

Giving up the target painter bonus especially since they changed XL turrets to be penalised more to sig then tracking isn't one I'm totally happy about but I run with the infowar link to increase TP bloom to make up for it a bit.

Some people are resistant to having much in the way of implants in for wormhole stuff which also makes even lg slaves less of an option for some people.

Another consideration is that if you do get jumped and want to fight back the rapier has a relative weak thermal resist and not amazing kinetic resists - much of the damage your going to run into from PVP fleets will have a good thermal proportion.
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