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[NEWS] “Operation Highlander” documents released, implicate Federation in widespread spying
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#241 - 2013-11-04 10:09:11 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Conspiracy theories are supposed to be bizarre and unbelievable, Veikitamo. Yours actually makes sense.


Conspiracy theories - for the successful ones at least - actually tend to be bizarre and believable. So believable that when mixed with sensationalism it systematically plays with the imagination of people and breaks the barrier between fantasy and reality.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2013-11-04 12:39:50 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
As a Civire a Provist and a Caldari i have sympathy for the Intaki cause for independence from the Federation.

You're proving exactly what I said - regurgitating the exact same points over and over without any hint of nuance. You're a broken record. Provists support Intaki independence because it would weaken the Federation. You're also very much aware that Intaki "independence" would actually cripple the independence of the Intaki, because suddenly they'd lose the collective bargaining power being a member of the Federation affords them, as well as FDU, FedNav, FIO and Customs oversight. They'd be easy prey to whatever military interest suddenly decided it wanted a piece of them. Given that the Provists still believe that the Intaki system is theirs by right of conquest, it'd probably be you that the Intaki would be in the most danger from.

Oh, and incidentally? Provists aren't Caldari. The CEP kicked you lot to the curb, and I can tell you're still very sore about it.

TomHorn wrote:
Anonymous donations to political parties are clearly that. There is no law in the Fed to my knowledge where you have to declare where the money has come from.

This illustrates your ignorance about hte Federation.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Urisuma Insaiji
Lai Dai Mercantile
#243 - 2013-11-04 13:38:32 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
You're also very much aware that Intaki "independence" would actually cripple the independence of the Intaki, because suddenly they'd lose the collective bargaining power being a member of the Federation affords them, as well as FDU, FedNav, FIO and Customs oversight. They'd be easy prey to whatever military interest suddenly decided it wanted a piece of them. Given that the Provists still believe that the Intaki system is theirs by right of conquest, it'd probably be you that the Intaki would be in the most danger from.


Let us disect this.

The collective bargaining power is, simply, a fallacy. They are 20% of the population of the Federation, how this makes them more able to form law and policy favourable to themselves assuming that the 20% equates to that percentage representation of their opinions in the Senate. Compared to being independent, whereby their government would be 100% representative of the opinions of the 20%, being in the federation weakens their voice. Even the Minmatar are a larger population than the Intaki.

The military accussation implies that the Federation, upon the creation of a free Intaki state would abandon them. Surely once independent you would want to foster relations? Or are you Gallente truly that offended by the idea of Intaki thinking for themselves that you would embargo them and refuse to help them have a smooth transition to a free state? It is not good business to be spiteful.

And in your final comment you claim the provists are the greatest threat to the Intaki despite soon after pointing out that they are non-entities within the state now. This contradiction highlights the lack of coherance in your points.

Think upon this.

///// Lai Dai Mercantile //// Chief Executive Officer /// Urisuma Insaiji
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2013-11-04 14:22:22 UTC
Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
The collective bargaining power is, simply, a fallacy. They are 20% of the population of the Federation, how this makes them more able to form law and policy favourable to themselves assuming that the 20% equates to that percentage representation of their opinions in the Senate. Compared to being independent, whereby their government would be 100% representative of the opinions of the 20%, being in the federation weakens their voice. Even the Minmatar are a larger population than the Intaki.

You're either ignorant or purposely misrepresenting my statements. Despite being a minority within the Federation, being a member of the Federation gives the Intaki Assembly an amount of diplomatic clout far superior to what it would possess as an independent nation. We benefit, and the Federation benefits. Strangely enough, the seperatists and their supporters have yet to demonstrate the massive, crippling downsides to this arrangement that everyone automatically just assumes there have to be because no-one on the IGS believes the Federation can do anything right.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
The military accussation implies that the Federation, upon the creation of a free Intaki state would abandon them. Surely once independent you would want to foster relations? Or are you Gallente truly that offended by the idea of Intaki thinking for themselves that you would embargo them and refuse to help them have a smooth transition to a free state? It is not good business to be spiteful.

This would be Federal interference in the political processes of an independent nation, something the Federation has been whined at by your type for doing in the past. The Federal Navy is for the protection of member states of the Federation from threats foreign and domestic - if you leave the Federation, you walk out from under that aegis. It should be noted, incidentally, that contrary to the opinions of some Intaki seperatists and their spurious Caldari supporters, the Federal Navy is not currently barred from entry to the Intaki system - it is merely no longer currently responsible for the system's security franchise. Threats beyond the scope of the system's security franchise - such as armed invasion of the system by a force outside the jurisdiction of CEWPA - would still receive a naval response.

Intaki can have the protection of the Federal Navy, or we can have independence. We can't have both. If an independent Intaki suddenly needed to call upon the Federal Navy for help, one questions exactly what seceeding actually gained us in the first place.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
And in your final comment you claim the provists are the greatest threat to the Intaki despite soon after pointing out that they are non-entities within the state now. This contradiction highlights the lack of coherance in your points.

I can see why this might confuse you, but non-entities within the State does not equate to not existing.

The Provists are still exceptionally dangerous. That they no longer have access to unlimited resources, manpower and support from a subservient State makes them less dangerous, but it does not make them irrelevant.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Urisuma Insaiji
Lai Dai Mercantile
#245 - 2013-11-04 14:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Urisuma Insaiji
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
You're either ignorant or purposely misrepresenting my statements. Despite being a minority within the Federation, being a member of the Federation gives the Intaki Assembly an amount of diplomatic clout far superior to what it would possess as an independent nation. We benefit, and the Federation benefits. Strangely enough, the seperatists and their supporters have yet to demonstrate the massive, crippling downsides to this arrangement that everyone automatically just assumes there have to be because no-one on the IGS believes the Federation can do anything right.


Concerning your first sentence: attacking the person you are debating with, even if you substantiate it with a written argument, implies that you are struggling to justify your position in face of scrutiny.

Your point does still not hold up. If five people are collectively bargaining with an employer and 4 of them agree that they should take a lower wage with longer hours without protest, the fifth no matter how much they protest would have to comply or lose their job.

The Intaki are this fifth person. The 'collective bargaining' you refer to favours the ethnic majorities of Gallente and Minmatar.

Of course leaving this arrangement would mean that the Intaki would no longer be part of a large unit, but being part of a large unit that you cannot control due to being a minority gives you little benefit.

At least by being seperate the Intaki would be able to choose laws that fit them rather than trying to fit to laws made by the Gallente/Minmatar majority.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
This would be Federal interference in the political processes of an independent nation, something the Federation has been whined at by your type for doing in the past. The Federal Navy is for the protection of member states of the Federation from threats foreign and domestic - if you leave the Federation, you walk out from under that aegis. It should be noted, incidentally, that contrary to the opinions of some Intaki seperatists and their spurious Caldari supporters, the Federal Navy is not currently barred from entry to the Intaki system - it is merely no longer currently responsible for the system's security franchise. Threats beyond the scope of the system's security franchise - such as armed invasion of the system by a force outside the jurisdiction of CEWPA - would still receive a naval response.

Intaki can have the protection of the Federal Navy, or we can have independence. We can't have both. If an independent Intaki suddenly needed to call upon the Federal Navy for help, one questions exactly what seceeding actually gained us in the first place.


Do not try to tag me to groups when you know little of me.

Assisting in a peaceful transition from minority members to a free state for the Intaki would be something I would applaud.

And in reply to your last point of this section, you seem to imply that should the Minmatar urgently require assistance you would turn them away claiming that "You are either part of the federation or not" as the reasoning behind your move.

I do not think that such an endevour would ever occur.

It is ridiculous and protectionist to suggest that a free Intaki state would be completely barred from diplomatic, economic and military co-operation with the federation.

Additionally succession gives the ability to truly run your own matters and speak with other nations as you would want to speak with them not how the federal majority would.

Also your suggestions seem to indicate that an independent Intaki state would have no military, however going by Mordu's Legion, they would have a military that would most certainly be a force to be reckoned with.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
I can see why this might confuse you, but non-entities within the State does not equate to not existing. The Provists are still exceptionally dangerous. That they no longer have access to unlimited resources, manpower and support from a subservient State makes them less dangerous, but it does not make them irrelevant.


Once again, attacking the person implies you cannot rationalise an argument.

And on the scale we are talking about, the Provists are not a threat, do you honestly think that they would be able to muster a force that could even compare to that of a single Megacorps military.

Surely the Gallente would act against the Provists? as I said before, spite is not good business.

///// Lai Dai Mercantile //// Chief Executive Officer /// Urisuma Insaiji
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#246 - 2013-11-04 15:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Your argument is based on the fact that voices within the Federation are based on ethnicity, they're not.


Instead, they're based on political standpoint, and the Intaki have a large representative within the Dove bloc, which is one of the strongest political elements within the Federation.

Also you do disrespect to the Mannar and Jin-Mei by assuming that the only beneficiaries are Gallente and Matari citizens, infact I question your understanding of the Federation's political organisation, because the argument you're trying to push doesn't reflect the real situation at all. It's at best, poor propaganda, and the kind of baseless tripe that a few people have been rallying to push from these discussions for a few days now.


Also:

Quote:
And in reply to your last point of this section, you seem to imply that should the Minmatar urgently require assistance you would turn them away claiming that "You are either part of the federation or not" as the reasoning behind your move.


Strawman arguments are also a great tell-tale sign that your argument lacks conviction, just as much as personal attacks do.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Urisuma Insaiji
Lai Dai Mercantile
#247 - 2013-11-04 15:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Urisuma Insaiji
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Your argument is based on the fact that voices within the Federation are based on ethnicity, they're not.

Instead, they're based on political standpoint, and the Intaki have a large representative within the Dove bloc, which is one of the strongest political elements within the Federation.

Also you do disrespect to the Mannar and Jin-Mei by assuming that the only beneficiaries are Gallente and Matari citizens, infact I question your understanding of the Federation's political organisation, because the argument you're trying to push doesn't reflect the real situation at all. It's at best, poor propaganda, and the kind of baseless tripe that a few people have been rallying to push from these discussions for a few days now.


If the Intaki are largely members of the Dove block, which is now in the minority due to Hawks and Vultures, then surely that only further proves my point.

Roden is no Dove and at this time neither is the Senate.

If they are Dove by such a large amount as you would suggest then surely that only further proves my point that their voice is cut when the majorities conspire.

And I do not think this is the best conversation within to discuss the situations of the Mannar or Jin-Mei, it simply diverts from the discussion about the Intaki and attempts to steer focus from the real point.

Once more, attacking the person implies you cannot rationalise an argument. Accusations that having an opinion differing to that of yourself is propoganda truly does not befit your enlightened democracy surely?

If whenever people try to have a reasonable discussion about the situation you shout them down with accusations of ignorance, misrepresentation or propoganda then why are you at all suprised when the restistance to you stiffens and continues?

This discussion is perfectly reasonable and I've stated that there are advantages for the Intaki being part of the Federation however the disadvantages outway them from my view and many others.

Caellach Marellus wrote:
Strawman arguments are also a great tell-tale sign that your argument lacks conviction, just as much as personal attacks do.


Calling my point a straw man without any form of logical rebuttle argument implies that you cannot argue it. He very clearly stated that a free Intaki state would be isolated from federation military assistance. I pointed out this was protectionist and illogical from a strategic and diplomatic point of view.

If you cannot answer, then do not. Do not waste words pretending that a claim defeats a valid point.

///// Lai Dai Mercantile //// Chief Executive Officer /// Urisuma Insaiji
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#248 - 2013-11-04 15:54:44 UTC
Strawmen don't need to be rebuted, the point is you're making up the argument because it doesn't otherwise exist.

I'll argue with what someone actually said, not some argument made up by their opponent.


Also the ostrich bloc isn't even a bloc, it's the general masses who don't get involved in politics, the thought of them conspiring with anyone is laughable. The hawk block is mostly Mannar and Jin-Mei, and they often go on a cycle with the Doves. When conflict is at a low, and we're in an era of prosperity (see most of Foiritan's administration as an example) the Doves have a very strong voice, there's nothing to call to war, and all is well.

When strife and conflict are at a high point, notably the last few years up until the destruction of the Shiigeru, the Hawk bloc tends to have the strongest voice.


The reasons for conflict and war are once again thinning out, and the Doves will find their voice while the Hawks regress into being twitchy and having to wait for something to come along. You're looking at the political situation entirely too short term and assuming that's the way things are.

Truth is, 8 years ago we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.



And no, ignorance is when you simply make up arguments that aren't actually true, especially with a lack of any evidence to support your claims. In short the reasons for doing it are as transparent as glass, and trying to defend your poor arguments from criticism with "you're only saying that because you disagree with my opinion!" effectively ends the whole charade, because you've admitted it's just that. An opinion.

With no factual basis behind it.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#249 - 2013-11-04 15:55:43 UTC
Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
If you cannot answer, then do not. Do not waste words pretending that a claim defeats a valid point.


That would make most of your reply significantly invalid then, as your lack of understanding into Federal politics shows.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2013-11-04 16:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
Concerning your first sentence: attacking the person you are debating with, even if you substantiate it with a written argument, implies that you are struggling to justify your position in face of scrutiny.

No it doesn't. It means you're twisting the intent of my statements - either through malice or ignorance - and thus what I'm saying is different to what you're hearing. This is a severe difficulty when trying to have a rational argument.

This is very clear when you continue to argue about bargaining over issues internal to the Federation, which is a discussion no-one is having. You're making points about internal collective bargaining - which, incidetnally, still show a shocking lack of understanding as to how agreements between individual Federal member states and the Senate are actually made - when I'm talking about the Intaki Assembly making arrangements with organisations that are either not part of the Federation's government (i.e. corporations) or not under the aegis of the Federation whatsoever.

You're having a different conversation to the rest of us.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
Assisting in a peaceful transition from minority members to a free state for the Intaki would be something I would applaud.

Despite it being something the people of Intaki neither want nor need, as with almost every Statist who professess similar sympathies.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
And in reply to your last point of this section, you seem to imply that should the Minmatar urgently require assistance you would turn them away claiming that "You are either part of the federation or not" as the reasoning behind your move.

We have a military alliance with them (at the moment, at least). I shouldn't have to spell this out to you. To make a military alliance with the Intaki worthwhile, we would have to have something worthwhile to offer the Federation. We could instead sign a protectorate agreement, but that negates the point of independence in the first place.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
Additionally succession gives the ability to truly run your own matters and speak with other nations as you would want to speak with them not how the federal majority would.

Also your suggestions seem to indicate that an independent Intaki state would have no military, however going by Mordu's Legion, they would have a military that would most certainly be a force to be reckoned with.

You talk about an independent Intaki state not having any military, and then you name Mordu's Legion - a mercenary outfit, loyal to no-one in particular. Regardless, navies cost money (as do mercenaries), and a naval force that would remain competitive enough with the cluster's other naval forces to safeguard a notional independent Intaki's independence would cost far more than a single system could possibly provide, especially considering it's now responsible for paying for a lot of things the Federation used to.

Could an independent Intaki seek CONCORD membership? Possibly, but CONCORD membership requires financial and military contribution, which exascerbates the above problems. Let us not forget also that CONCORD has, historically, not had a very good track record with being able to protect its member states from the treaty breaches of other member states - see the entirely illicit YC 110 invasion of Luminaire.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
And on the scale we are talking about, the Provists are not a threat, do you honestly think that they would be able to muster a force that could even compare to that of a single Megacorps military.

The megacorps certainly seem to disagree with you, considering how serious a threat they and the CEP consider the Provists to be.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Urisuma Insaiji
Lai Dai Mercantile
#251 - 2013-11-04 17:42:14 UTC
Once again proven right. This conversation seems like it will not be stimulating and I tire of listening to words spoken without meaning and without an even basic understanding of what I am saying. Rather working on assumptions and bias that would make even the U-nats proud, it would seem that the federation hasn't come far since the days of our freedom.

///// Lai Dai Mercantile //// Chief Executive Officer /// Urisuma Insaiji
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2013-11-04 17:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
Once again proven right. This conversation seems like it will not be stimulating and I tire of listening to words spoken without meaning and without an even basic understanding of what I am saying. Rather working on assumptions and bias that would make even the U-nats proud, it would seem that the federation hasn't come far since the days of our freedom.

The sheer irony of this post is staggering. You're projecting literally everything wrong with your own arguments onto myself and then blaming me for your own logical failings.

There are far more graceful ways of bowing out of an argument you no longer want to have. For example, practically every single other way you could possibly bow out of an argument.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Anslo
Scope Works
#253 - 2013-11-04 18:03:31 UTC
I still don't get why these cal/gal debates persist. All the rhetoric in the world isn't gonna make anyone right, no why bother? Let the Caldari do their thing, and the Fed goes and does its thing. I seriously don't get why this is so hard for both sides.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Urisuma Insaiji
Lai Dai Mercantile
#254 - 2013-11-04 18:09:29 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
The sheer irony of this post is staggering. You're projecting literally everything wrong with your own arguments onto myself and then blaming me for your own logical failings.

There are far more graceful ways of bowing out of an argument you no longer want to have. For example, practically every single other way you could possibly bow out of an argument.


I will make one more attempt to enlighten you to your failings.

One, you seem to have changed the meaning of collective bargaining from what it would be by standard definition: negotiating as a larger group to have more influence with another entity. We were having a discussion about that but you seem to have changed the argument to deflect focus once more to about how agreements are made within the federation.

Two, you constantly claim to speak for all Intaki, an incredibly irritating trait, without any backing.

Three, you constantly claim that I know nothing about Gallente politics then think yourself even educated to speak for the thoughts of the CEP!

And even if you cannot see why this is not worth my time any more, at least other people may.

///// Lai Dai Mercantile //// Chief Executive Officer /// Urisuma Insaiji
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2013-11-04 18:20:55 UTC
Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
I will make one more attempt to enlighten you to your failings.

COMEDY GOLD INCOMING.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
One, you seem to have changed the meaning of collective bargaining from what it would be by standard definition: negotiating as a larger group to have more influence with another entity.

Which is precisely what my definition of "the Intaki having greater negotiating power when negotiating with entities seperate from or external to the Federation because of membership in the Federation" fits. You are now literally arguing against your own definition of the term you're arguing over.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
Two, you constantly claim to speak for all Intaki, an incredibly irritating trait, without any backing.

No I don't, but thank you for playing.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
Three, you constantly claim that I know nothing about Gallente politics

Because you clearly don't.

Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
then think yourself even educated to speak for the thoughts of the CEP!

... that they've been kind enough to make public.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#256 - 2013-11-04 20:06:09 UTC
Anslo wrote:
I still don't get why these cal/gal debates persist. All the rhetoric in the world isn't gonna make anyone right, no why bother? Let the Caldari do their thing, and the Fed goes and does its thing. I seriously don't get why this is so hard for both sides.


When men run out of words they draw their swords, let's keep them talking.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anslo
Scope Works
#257 - 2013-11-04 20:09:41 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Anslo wrote:
I still don't get why these cal/gal debates persist. All the rhetoric in the world isn't gonna make anyone right, no why bother? Let the Caldari do their thing, and the Fed goes and does its thing. I seriously don't get why this is so hard for both sides.


When men run out of words they draw their swords, let's keep them talking.

Who's your money on winning a sword fight?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#258 - 2013-11-04 23:09:59 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Anslo wrote:
I still don't get why these cal/gal debates persist. All the rhetoric in the world isn't gonna make anyone right, no why bother? Let the Caldari do their thing, and the Fed goes and does its thing. I seriously don't get why this is so hard for both sides.


When men run out of words they draw their swords, let's keep them talking.

Who's your money on winning a sword fight?


Hmmm... That's an interesting one.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.