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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Intaki and the Federation

Author
Urisuma Insaiji
Lai Dai Mercantile
#101 - 2013-11-04 12:19:54 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I'm sure the Caldari capsuleers are trying to keep face, but I find it hard to believe that a State where the largest constituent is an arms manufacturer wants universal peace, love, and a total end to all war.


You seem to be misconstruing the Caldari State with a governmental bureaucracy.

Megacorps can't profit from buying their own weapons, it's an overhead. Megacorp military is kept for securities sake.

You can't say the same for governmental bureaucracies where you have political leaders who own weapon manufacturers and employ the money of trillions of individuals to buy their own weapons.

///// Lai Dai Mercantile //// Chief Executive Officer /// Urisuma Insaiji

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#102 - 2013-11-04 13:34:17 UTC
Since when Caldari arms manufacturers do not sell to the outside ?
Urisuma Insaiji
Lai Dai Mercantile
#103 - 2013-11-04 13:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Urisuma Insaiji
Lyn Farel wrote:
Since when Caldari arms manufacturers do not sell to the outside ?


We do sell outside. However you seem to think that Kaalakiota is uniquely an arms manufacturer and nothing else.

To assume that military products even come close to making even a significant portion of their portfolio or even the portfolio of the State is to pretend to comfort your own bias.

If peace was to evenlope the cluster the Kaalakiota corporation would face a temporary setback.

However if even 10% of current customers were to stop using Kaalakiota food products that would harm Kaalakiota much much more.

Don't assume when talking about arms manufacturing that the corporation that first comes to mind relies completely on that.

Now if war was to stop, Roden Shipyards would face oblivion but of course, what influence does that company have in matters of state?

///// Lai Dai Mercantile //// Chief Executive Officer /// Urisuma Insaiji

GoGo Yubari
PAK
#104 - 2013-11-04 14:26:18 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


Of all the billions of Intaki, the amount that want to secede are less than 1%. Probably less than 1% of 1% if you really want to get to the math.

While I do my best to stay out of thse sorts of discussions, there are times my passion rises and I must intercede. This is one of those times, sir. The violence you do to statistics and to mathematics in the above is beyond the pale. If you wish to claim that Intaki secessionists number 0.01% of a population, sir, please state it as so - not as the more confusing and less clear "1% of 1%." Further, speaking with such precision, with such accuracy of significant digits, requires a very thorough and exacting methodology which should therefore be included with the statistic.

Were I not so sure of your character, sir, and the sterling nature of your disposition, I might be pressed into thinking that your statements were mere hyperbole to lend false credence to an otherwise unsupportable position. This is clearly not the case, as there are very good resons to hold your position. Perhaps in the future it may be a good idea to have a statistician vet your claims beforehand, if that sort of mathematics isn't to your interest? It's certainly not for everyone, and there's no shame in it.

I'm sorry for the outburst.


Ah, where were you when the reverse argument of "The Intaki (sic majority) want out of the Federation" was being made?

There's too little guesswork and not enough top down facts being made here.


Certainly such an argument has not been made in this thread. The truth is there is - for whatever reason - no such statistics available to make any conclusion. Quite obviously the clearly separatist-minded are a minority, of course.

Something I wanted to allude to in the first posts, but didn't get around to addressing explicitly is that talk of secession can also be a political tool to effect change on the wider body politic. The first posts also detailed the history and the political trends which make such discussion pertinent in mainstream Intaki politics and not just an expression of extremists. This is why the question about whether the Federation is still fulfilling its original promise is so relevant. This is what keeps getting glossed over here in favor of alarmist rhetoric or discussions about the war between the Federation and the State.

There are other trends within the Federation in addition to those that support a continuation of the state of hostilities between the two nations. In general, the Intaki are typically at the forefront in promoting more peaceful options. This is further strengthened as a key issue in Intaki politics as their homeworld (and other colonies) are so obviously endangered by the war. If such ideologies become hopelessly marginalized in Federal politics, we can easily see how secessionist talk could become more pronounced as a way of achieving a peace otherwise unattainable.

Love by nature. Live by luck. Kill by profession.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#105 - 2013-11-04 14:42:42 UTC
Personally, I need only look to the Syndicate as to how the Federation treats the Intaki who no longer wish to be part of the Union. Marginalized. Threatened with force if they ever settle any planets there. Embargoed and then demonized as criminals for being forced to do whatever is necessary to eke a living on the frontier with their independence.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#106 - 2013-11-04 15:10:17 UTC
Urisuma Insaiji wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Since when Caldari arms manufacturers do not sell to the outside ?


We do sell outside. However you seem to think that Kaalakiota is uniquely an arms manufacturer and nothing else.


I seem to think... wait what ?
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#107 - 2013-11-04 15:14:12 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Personally, I need only look to the Syndicate as to how the Federation treats the Intaki who no longer wish to be part of the Union. Marginalized. Threatened with force if they ever settle any planets there. Embargoed and then demonized as criminals for being forced to do whatever is necessary to eke a living on the frontier with their independence.


So, I assume by your tone that you see that example in a negative light ?
Urisuma Insaiji
Lai Dai Mercantile
#108 - 2013-11-04 15:18:56 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
I seem to think... wait what ?


Your tone and the manner in which you replied to this conversation implied you too thought that Kaalakiota is in favour of war because it is a major arms manufacturer. As if Kaalakiota could not survive without war.

If that is not what you thought then I suggest that you approach this conversation in a manner which better defines your stance.

///// Lai Dai Mercantile //// Chief Executive Officer /// Urisuma Insaiji

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#109 - 2013-11-04 15:41:02 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Personally, I need only look to the Syndicate as to how the Federation treats the Intaki who no longer wish to be part of the Union. Marginalized. Threatened with force if they ever settle any planets there. Embargoed and then demonized as criminals for being forced to do whatever is necessary to eke a living on the frontier with their independence.


Kidnapping children for illegal pornography is necessary to eke a living in null sec now?

Also the Syndicate may have originally been Intaki exiled by a radical right wing U-NAT government (who the leader of which was, ironically, himself exiled there after being found guilty of war crimes) but the Syndicate today, that operates alongside the Serpentis and engages in a variety of illegal activities? There's more than just Intaki there now, and they're demonised for the actions they undertake today, not what their forbearers were zealously punished for 200 years ago.

Of course, that doesn't fit into your skewed perspective narrative, but I grow tired of this irrational need people have to justify their own bias viewpoint by criticising a rival entity with inaccurate criticism.

I'll also again point out the irony that if this was a matter concerning the State, there would be cries of "meddling in our affairs" aimed at anyone with Federal citizenship who was posting, perhaps you should spend less time stirring up the pot elsewhere with little more than bullshit, when your own house of affairs aren't entirely in order.



Unfortunately (or fortunately, as there's less to clean up) this level of inaccurate faeces flinging seems to be largely going in one direction these days, rest assured if it were unfair commentary being made against the State's private affairs, I'd remain as impartial. My only issue is with ignorance, especially when people attempt to spread it.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-11-04 15:46:10 UTC
One should also consider that the original 5000 were mostly criminals, terrorists and dissidents who the Intaki themselves had little affection for. There is a reason why contact between Federal Intaki and Syndicate Intaki takes place seldom and behind firmly closed doors.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#111 - 2013-11-04 15:48:58 UTC
This seems as good a time as any to state that AWEX is currently under taking a survey exploring the awareness and dispositions that individual capsuleers have to Intaki issues of note, particularly Syndicate, Placid, Waschi City (and State immigration of the Intaki people) and Federation integration.

This survey is not intended to push or promote any particular agenda and care has been taken to ensure that it is representative of the views of the respondents, NOT a pre-determined agenda. The survey itself is, as stated, intended to collect and present data through the lens of Issues pertinent to the discussion of the Intaki people in the capsuleer sphere.

THE SURVEY

I thank all respondents in advance for their participation and hope that this will at least give us some perspective with regards to Capsuleer views on this and other Intaki related subjects, no matter how small the initial sampling of topics may seem.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-11-04 16:11:28 UTC
This survey is going to be entirely irrelevant as it's entirely open to people who are not Federal citizens or otherwise members of groups relevant to Intaki interests. Members of the Caldari State and the Amarr Empire are overwhelmingly going to vote in support of Intaki seccession simply to spite the Federation (after all, that's the reason they support it anyway), members of the Minmatar Republic are unlikely to skew the survey one way or another but - with the greatest respect - have little relevance to my people and the opinions of the various pirate organisations simply can't be trusted for a number of obvious reasons.

The only relevant people in this equation are Federal capsuleers and members of non-Federal Intaki interests.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#113 - 2013-11-04 16:21:31 UTC
I am a Caldari capsuleer who is in favour of Intaki sovereignty, as you rightly suggest! I am not in favour of them leaving, however, I'm in favour of them enjoying their own self-determination, whether that involves leaving, staying, or otherwise. Should they decide to pursue independence, it is my hope that they enjoy a friendly relationship with the Federation, and act as a bridge between our separated peoples. Their gift for diplomacy and their good graces will no doubt ensure them a bright future, whatever the path they take.

But, wouldn't the conversation on whether the Intaki should pursue independence rest solely with the Intaki, sir?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-11-04 16:37:26 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
But, wouldn't the conversation on whether the Intaki should pursue independence rest solely with the Intaki, sir?

Indeed.

Which is why I'm still wondering why people somehow feel they have more right to talk about my people than I do.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#115 - 2013-11-04 16:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelisha
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
This survey is going to be entirely irrelevant as it's entirely open to people who are not Federal citizens or otherwise members of groups relevant to Intaki interests. Members of the Caldari State and the Amarr Empire are overwhelmingly going to vote in support of Intaki seccession simply to spite the Federation (after all, that's the reason they support it anyway), members of the Minmatar Republic are unlikely to skew the survey one way or another but - with the greatest respect - have little relevance to my people and the opinions of the various pirate organisations simply can't be trusted for a number of obvious reasons.

The only relevant people in this equation are Federal capsuleers and members of non-Federal Intaki interests.


I can and will present filtered data that adheres to those specifications, Mr Ixiris. The reason for casting the net so wide is to get a general picture of Capsuleer opinions, there are considerable infographic and data presentation tools that can present data ONLY from those posters identifying under certain racial and residencies.

It is a possibility that some may lie, and it is hoped that a large enough number of submissions will be collected to help marginalise, though not completely remove, maliciously injected anomalous data.

Your concerns are well founded, reasonable and I will do my level best to provide context specific output from this data - I will not just rehash the findings as raw data without first providing contextual and topical results for the consumption of the general public.

Again, I would like to thank you for bringing such integrity questions to light. This is a survey and not intended to be a direct analysis of the political situation as it applies to the Federation specifically. It is a survey showing the opinions of independent capsuleers based on their national and racial identification and responses concerning specific issues.

If anyone tries to use any data presented from this survey as a means of arguing for policy change, I urge you to direct them to this post so that they may be corrected in their misuse of the data in a manner for which it was never intended for it to be used.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#116 - 2013-11-04 16:44:43 UTC
We have equal rights to comment on these forums, sir. On this issue, we have unequal rights to decide or enact. Polling as wide a group as possible during the information-gathering process is always a good idea - it's easy to discard the obviously bad, adn it leaves you with more ideas than you might have had otherwise!

Prosperity to your people, sir.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-11-04 16:57:55 UTC
Aelisha wrote:
I can and will present filtered data that adheres to those specifications, Mr Ixiris. The reason for casting the net so wide is to get a general picture of Capsuleer opinions, there are considerable infographic and data presentation tools that can present data ONLY from those posters identifying under certain racial and residencies.

It is a possibility that some may lie, and it is hoped that a large enough number of submissions will be collected to help marginalise, though not completely remove, maliciously injected anomalous data.

There's also no verification measure to ensure that people are actually telling the truth about their origins. People can claim to be Intaki or any other ethnicity when they're actually not, and skew the results whatever way they wish.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#118 - 2013-11-04 18:03:58 UTC
Andreus, I think you might be mixing up the right to express an opinion with the right to hold a stake in the process. I have no pretensions to the latter, but fail to see why I cannot exercise the former - especially if it educates me on the situation.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-11-04 18:27:45 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Andreus, I think you might be mixing up the right to express an opinion with the right to hold a stake in the process.

Then you might kindly inform your kirjuunen of the difference between those rights, because some of them seem to be confused.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I have no pretensions to the latter, but fail to see why I cannot exercise the former - especially if it educates me on the situation.

If your intent is to be educated on the subject of the Intaki, then might I suggest that you might also kindly learn something from us? Because, with as much respect as I can give, the only person who seems to have learned anything in this thread is me, and all that I've learned is how every discussion about the Intaki inevitably gets turned towards the Federation's supposed failings.

People call me a "slave" of or a "shill" for the Gallente because I support Intaki membership in the Federation, yet none of you ever seem to consider the possibility that it is my heritage as an Intaki that makes me loyal to the Federation in the first place. If you want to learn something about the Intaki, about why seccessionalism exists but has never been that popular even at the worst times in Intaki history, perhaps you should ask an Intaki loyal to the Federation why he's loyal to the Federation.

I think I could suggest someone who could answer that question.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#120 - 2013-11-04 19:17:51 UTC
Aelisha wrote:
This seems as good a time as any to state that AWEX is currently under taking a survey exploring the awareness and dispositions that individual capsuleers have to Intaki issues of note, particularly Syndicate, Placid, Waschi City (and State immigration of the Intaki people) and Federation integration.

This survey is not intended to push or promote any particular agenda and care has been taken to ensure that it is representative of the views of the respondents, NOT a pre-determined agenda. The survey itself is, as stated, intended to collect and present data through the lens of Issues pertinent to the discussion of the Intaki people in the capsuleer sphere.

THE SURVEY

I thank all respondents in advance for their participation and hope that this will at least give us some perspective with regards to Capsuleer views on this and other Intaki related subjects, no matter how small the initial sampling of topics may seem.



Okay, I took this.

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content